The secret life of a safety psychologist

Shaun: Welcome to Health and Safety UnCut. I am absolutely delighted to have Dr. Tim Marsh with us today. The episode today entitled The Secret Life of a Safety Psychologist. Dr. Marsh has been a proponent of building strong organizational cultures within which everybody buys into the theory that taking care of workers', mental and physical wellbeing is key to ensuring they stay safe and able to thrive in the workplace.

Dr. Marsh is a well-known figure on the international conference and event circuit, regularly giving talks on the importance of taking a holistic approach to safety, health, and wellbeing. He's one half of Anker and Marsh, a consultancy he runs alongside Jason Anker, MBE, who was paralyzed in the early nineties after falling from a ladder at work.

Jason went on to help others avoid the same fate by reliving his experience as a motivational speaker. Welcome, Tim. 

Tim: Oh, thank you, Shaun.

Shaun: Lovely to be here. Great to have you here. Tim, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background and explain why health and safety and wellbeing is so important to you?

Tim: Uh, well, uh, it, it wasn't, uh, initially I was a psychologist. Um, but my first job after I got my doctorate was looking at suicides in the Army. It just happened to be, have, have a, a wellbeing component. Um, and after that. Uh, there was a big project going on in Manchester, James Rees and, and so on, Manchester, a big center of safety, looking at this thing called behavioural safety, uh, that would come over from America and, uh, BST and people were getting going.

Um, so my job was to look at behavioural safety on construction sites. Uh, there's a, a three year project. Dominic Cooper kept it, kicked it off, uh, big name in behavioural safety. Uh, at the end of that, we wrote some papers, and of course, the phone starts ringing. And basically you spend the next 10 years on an oil rig.

Oh. Between behavioural safety. So that was a, that was a while ago now, though.

Shaun: So the psychologist aspect then. So if I'm, I'm understanding, I've known you a long time, I didn't know that. So you migrated from organizational psychology into safety, is that right?

Tim: Absolutely. I was an out and out organizational psychologist.

My first company set up with a guy called Paul Rider, hence Rider Marsh, if you, if you remember that. Um, we, we were doing assessment and development centers for managers. Uh. All over. Nothing to do with safety whatsoever. But, um, as I said, uh, I was in, invited to step in Dom, Dom Cooper, uh, left, and I, I stepped in for a couple of months to cover Dom and I just found it's so enjoyable, um, that I, I never wanted to leave, you know, once you've done four or five assessment centers in BLEs, frankly.

But my, my first day at work, my first day ever as a, as a, a safety psychologist i'd, I'd gone up to the Blackburn roll with stand. To, to look up the, the construction work that was going on there. And the guy said is, you know, Jack Walker stand, this is back just before they won the league. So you, you know, a long, long time ago now.

And they said, look, you know, what you need to see is the view from the end of this beam. It's only half built the, the, the roof of the stand at the time. So it was just like ropes. And, you know, so I walked to the end of the beam and they said, from here you could spit on the penalty spot. Well, not, not, not in this wind.

You couldn't. Yeah. You know, and things sway in and there's, there's, you know, the roof's not finished. And I said, well, what on earth are you showing me this for? And he said, well, just wanted to see how far you'd come up here. 'cause we've got a sweepstake going. And then I looked down and all the lads were kind of cheering and waving.

And so when I went back down, having passed the initiation, that we had a really good chat. It was a cracking, cracking eyes. Oh, this is, this is, uh, a good way to spend a day. Um, and it's been fun ever since. Really.

Shaun: Well, that's a great, that's a great story to share. So, in terms then of your background where you said you did the work in the research of the Army and then moved into the construction sector.

What, what kind of, what evolving themes were you seeing then, because presumably that was quite some time ago, and before you got into safety, what have you seen as threads throughout your career? Are there any,

Tim: um, well, back in those days, the, the, the research had one, finding, frankly our two findings. The first one was does behavioural safety work this new thing in from America that they're, they're talking about?

And the answer was, well, it does. Uh, but the second finding was if there's the management commitment to, implement it properly.

Shaun: Right.

Tim: So that, that was, and, and frankly that theme, uh, how much management commitment are we talking about genuinely to whatever it is we say that we're trying to achieve. You know, obviously pointing at values and so on, um, is, is the key theme, you know, so Jason and I, when we, we started working together, he got fed up with being wheeled out as a magic bullet and listen to this man and then be safe for the rest of your days.

Uh, and he, he knew that, that, that they'd be safe for the rest of the week. Right. Interesting. So, so that whole trying to do something that's sustainable and effective in the long term and not a magic bullet, sheep dip type thing. That's the theme that has been forefront. You know, you still do it now anyway. It used to be safety, now it's wellbeing and mental health.

Shaun: so, so back, rowing back a little bit to behavioural safety, which many people listening to this will be familiar with that term. Maybe not. A universal definition of that term, because I've heard a variety of different aspects and themes of that.

What, what, what? As an organizational psychologist and a safety professional, what, what do you mean when you talk about behavioural safety,

Tim: I, uh, I actually, I wrote a book that tried to define it. The Definitive Guide to Behavioural Safety Second Edition came out in December. Um, and what the, what the book basically says is, well, you know, define behavioural safety.

Some people think the fire walking is behavioural safety. If you can walk on these hot calls, you can do anything. So go off and be safe. Obviously that's, uh, that's not my favourite methodology, but absolutely everything from the CEO's talk to management, leadership training. To good old fashioned, uh, frontline, you know, measurement and, and, and management.

You might, you might call it a Six Sigma safety, maybe, you know, which is where BST got there, you know, the Deming stuff, the DBST started using with, with measurement and empowerment. There's, there's a million things in between for me, if it is a systematic attempt to improve the safety of the frontline worker who could hurt themselves doing their job, or whose mental health could be seriously impacted by their jobs, so call centers and so on are driving to work. Um, it's behavioural safety.

Shaun: So when you say BST, what do you mean by BST?

Oh, sorry. Uh, BST, they were the pioneers really. The commercial well, along with people like AUB Daniels, Scott Galler in America, BST, Behavioural Science Technology, were very much the pioneers of commercial behavioural safety as a, as a consultancy. Tom Crow's outfit. 

Shaun: So people that are listening to this who have kind of the, built their framework, they've built their management systems, they're, they're rolling things out and they're getting ready to evolve their programs. What, what would your advice to them be to start a behavioural safety program?

Tim: Well, uh, two, two strands I think. Um, the first one is you need to know that you've had diminishing returns with your systems and your procedures and your training and your inductions. And most companies we work with, nearly all companies we work with will have done that. And then there are two strands.

Uh, it doesn't, doesn't really matter whether it's, you know, a walk and talk from a manager or good old fashioned behavioural safety frontline team. Two strands. The first one is why what's happening is happening, you know? And the more objectively you can understand why people are cutting corners, why people are taking risks, the better placed you're out to do something about it.

And the second strand is empowerment and engagement and getting people switched on. Now, part of that is just treating them like adults, um, and involving them in the process. And the other part is the wellbeing piece, right? And if you are having a really bad day, if you're just looking at the clock wishing for it to be five o'clock, it's very difficult to be, uh, switched on to safety, uh, and, and your day-to-day behaviours as we'd want them to be.

Shaun: And so taking it to the other extreme then of organizations that are absolutely world class or best in class in this space, what, what do they do that you would encourage other people to start aspiring to do or to think about? 

Tim: Uh, what they do, I think is, is just what I've said. They are really good at analysing why the things that are happening, they don't want to be happening, are happening.

I mean, basically, if you remember the old black books. It's a TV program where he swallows the little book of calm. Mm-hmm. You know what they need to do is to swallow Matthew Ed's black box thinking, you know, which is all about. Understanding and learning. And the more objectively an adult, the better. Um, and the second book they need to swallow is Dale Carnegie's, how to Win Friends and Influence People, and all that soft stuff about getting people switched on and engaged and empowered.

Um, and if they're doing something that's seeking to do those two things, and of course they massively overlap. You know, um, I'll give you an example in, in a minute. Um, uh, then it won't be going too far along. So I, a classic way that we screw things up out there is that we tell people I want this job doing safely, but by Friday.

Shaun: Yeah.

Tim: And that absolutely means by Friday as safely as you can be, these Yeah. And corners are cut and workarounds to come up with and people take risks and 999 times out of a thousand they get away with it, but sooner or later the luck runs out. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, for me. Training absolutely every frontline supervisor to say, I want this job doing safely and by Friday.

Mm-hmm. And if there's a problem with that, that, that you will know and you are the frontline expert. Let's sit around the table with a Coke and a mouse bar, thrash it through. And, and that discussion will generate really good risk management and solutions and, and design. But it's empowering and engaging.

Shaun: Hmm. You touched on something then. That is a, a real, uh, pet subject of mine, which is around. The safety professional as a kind of business professional. So you mentioned then Dill carne. I, I'm a big fan of Kobe's seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I personally think that the safety profession needs to challenge themselves to be much more, much broader in terms of their discipline is obviously incredibly important, but they're operating within a organizational context with all those other factors that they need to consider, they need to think about being the business partner, the critical friend, the supporter. What, what do you see in other what? What have you seen and do you see with exemplary? Safety professionals, what are they doing different to your average safety professional?

Tim: Oh, I'm not, I'm not sure. I know the frontline work of safety professionals well enough to comment, but I, I, uh, I'll have a stab at an answer, which is I think the best safety professionals are taking a holistic view. I think all the best safety work takes a holistic view and understands that poor safety is a subset of just poor organization, you know, so when we, when we do our talks and we say, look, if you get this right and this right, and this right, then what you'll get is you'll get, you know, less turnover of your best staff, less presenteeism, less absenteeism, more discretionary effort, fewer spurious claims. Mm-hmm. You know, um, fewer accidents and incidents of all types and better mental health. It's, you know, it's just a, it's a basket. It's a mul soup.

Shaun: Mm.

Tim: Getting it wrong when you get all the opposite, of course, you know, and, and fewer incidents and accidents of all types. It's just a subset of having a, a, an excellent culture and an excellent organization. 

Shaun: That's really interesting.

Now, in your book you talk, and, and in previous conversations and interviews, you've talked about the importance of language. You talk about how communication and language is essential. What, uh, help us unpack that a bit more. Why, why do you believe that?

Tim: Because that's how we, that's how we communicate ideas and what, what we want.

I mean, it's not so much, obviously an obvious example I've already given you, you know, we all know if I say it's really great to be here, but I'm about to say something really negative and, and completely and undermine what I've just said, you know, so we did that safely, but by Friday and, and a lot of good consultancies talk about using positive language.

You're not gonna try, you actually are going to achieve, uh, and, and so on and so forth. But frankly, you know, 85% of a communication is in the voice tone and the body language. So if you want to convey that you're not particularly interested, you do it through your voice tone and your body language, and it doesn't really matter what the words are, or it could be a behaviour, you know, um, the classic one is the CEO stands up on the annual safety day where Jason is primed to do his talk and all that, and he says, listen to this guy. Nothing. Nothing is more important than safety. Then two minutes later slips out the back door to go and do something more important.

You know, that's, yeah, that's, you know, that's not about language is it? But that speaks volumes.

Shaun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I share a, I share a story about a previous role I had years ago where we had a big behavioural safety campaign. We ploughed a lot of money into it, a lot of training, a lot of education, and then a very, very senior individual turned upon a site and got out the car and walked straight across the site in their Gucci loafers, no hives, not observing the, um, the, the, the designated walking routes. Um, we could have, we might as well have just set fire to the money that we'd spent on that behavioural safety program. Now they did recover that by, by. Holding hands up and saying, you know, I was distracted. I made a mistake.

It can happen to, to any of us. But it just really reinforced to me at that point, the, the sensitivity and the, the vulnerability of these programs in terms of you have got to say it and do it. So you can have great comms, you can have great poster campaigns, you can have great engagement strategies, but if you're not actually doing it.

It's not gonna be effective.

Tim: No, absolutely. And one of the golden rules of course is, you know, the, the shadow of leadership. You know, it's not, you know, if you say it but you don't do it, you might as well not bother saying it. Yeah. So we, we, we'd all, we'd all agreed on that one.

Shaun: So if we can shift it now a little bit more to, um, your position or your thoughts on what, what can, or should, do you think industry, charities, government be doing to help support the safety, health and wellbeing agenda more?

Tim: Well, I just by articulating, for me, I mean, you know, lots and lots of things, obviously, but the most obvious one is to just always really frame it from the, the business perspective to say, look, you know, this is, this is about general excellence.

It's about business resilience, it's about profitability, it's about sustainability. It's about keeping your shareholders happy and your people safe. You know, so always taking, uh. A holistic and a realistic, you know, Jason and I spend a lot of time swearing, you know, because that'll get the people who are listening to us to think that we're actually talking in their language, um, and, and, and so on.

And so you have to talk to the CFO, you know, the CEO might maybe, uh, maybe somebody and they take a value of safety with them. The, you know, CFOs don't. Turn up at funerals, you are there. But if you can talk to the CFO in a language that they understand, then you, you'll, you know, you, you've got a, a stab of success.

Shaun: Yeah, I think, I think as back to safety professional point, I think you've got to put yourself in the view of the chief people officer, the CFO, the CEO, the marketing and sales, and the whole functional aspect. You've got. I, I think one criticism I would have of our profession at times is we can be a bit purist and, and a bit selfish.

We need to think about how, in my view, how we engage and take people with us, because we want people to make it priority for us, but we need to understand that there are other priorities at play and that partnership and collaboration piece is. Working, working really together for a, a kind of joint end to me is what's gonna make a difference.

But I'd be interested in your views on that. 

Tim: Well, I I couldn't agree more. You know, if you, if you assume that everybody sees the world the way you see the world, you're just gonna have conflict or I'm just not going to America at the moment. I mean, nobody can agree on anything so. You need to, but you know, I think carne and people at that, you know, cover that really well.

You need to walk like Elvis, walk a mile in a man's shoes, and that includes the CFO as well as the CEO. What, what are they thinking? And if you're talking about politicians, of course they're just thinking about opinion polls and, and a five year cycle, which isn't great. Um, although the, the current lot look to be thinking in a 10 year cycle quite proactively, which, um, is encouraging to get to kick lock.

But, um, but you know, so yeah, I bet you know, CEOs, C-suites. Five years from now, they're all gonna be on a golf course in Spain or you know, and, you know, or, or moving on. And then, you know, people bouncing from one industry to another, they seem to, and you, you have to have their ear, um, or you get a lot of lip service.

Shaun: So there's an element with that there. I think reading between the lines there, there's an element of. Sustainability with a small s in terms of creating a culture and a, and a and a, a commitment to safety that has to outlast the individuals in those roles. It has to be something that will, that can stand on its own as you get changes in, in leadership is what, is what I think you're saying.

Tim: No, absolutely. I mean, we all know it takes years to properly change your culture. The good news, it doesn't take years to change back as well. Changes back faster than you change it positively, but it still takes a while. Um, and what we're always looking to do is to set up just a culture of excellence, a cult, a genuine culture of care.

I mean, you know, and to, to articulate it, the, the way you've been explaining it, Sean, a culture of care because it's a, it's a key element of a culture of excellence. Yeah. Yeah.

Shaun: Yeah. Great. So you've recently published a collection of your articles from the last decade, so a couple of questions.

Tim: Decades.

Decades. Decades. Yeah. So why, why now? And with the benefit of being able to look back, what are your reflections on um. The last decade.

Tim: Oh, well, sure. I mean, the, the collection of articles is all to raise money for, uh, Brawd and Mates in Mind to mens mental health charities. Uh, I mean, we put them together with a British Safety Council as, as you know, uh, trying to raise a, a fair few bob over the course of this year.

Good start. But if you're listening to this, please, uh, please download a copy. Um, long way to go. Uh, but the, the key theme, I think, Sean. Definitely, you know, when we were Id 15, 20 years ago, it was about culture. Culture is king. Uh, you know, and leadership is, is key to culture. You know, it, it was that message.

And we, we didn't really talk about mental health and wellbeing at all. Uh, it was considered taboo, you know, blaming the victim. Uh, nothing to do with organizations. And the big shift for me in the, in the last decade is really clear. We are now understanding that wellbeing and mental health are absolutely key to safety.

I, I, you know, I try and explain why, if you're having a really bad day, you're much more likely to be fatalistic. You know? Uh, the last thing that Jason said before he fell off his ladder was 'sod it.' Well, it's slightly rude than that, but, you know, um, you know, the second thing is you're much more likely to be distracted.

Mm-hmm. And we all know that high levels of situational awareness are a need when you, when you are out the front line. And the third thing is you're making worse decisions probably, and you're making, uh, worse, uh, communication, having worse, worse dialogue and safety differently. Summarize it, you know, the absolute key of safety differently is, I want you to make me lots of money without hurting yourself.

What do you need from me? So if you're not having those conversations and having them, well, you're probably. Not having a, a strong safety culture and people getting hurt much more likely. So we do need to, to be addressing people's mindset and their wellbeing really proactively as a key element of safety.

It's not just putting the guard on them, painting the sign, making sure they, the gates closed, it's, you know, the interlock works, et cetera, et cetera. That's Michael, of course, it's all the other stuff about the, in the, the individuals they interact with all that stuff.

Shaun: So this might be a little bit controversial.

I've heard you talk about the F-I scale. Um, can you expand a little bit on that? What the history to that was, how people are using it, and also the fact that it's, uh, an award-winning scheme?

Tim: Uh, yeah. Cer-certainly Sean. Uh, basically when, when Jason and I started working, and the challenge was, look, you know, I, I've won all sorts of awards, an MBE. For giving this talk and the talk is, is anchored on take five seconds, step back, those five seconds, could save your life. Um, and his challenge was on the day in question. He did, he took five seconds, he stepped back and then he got on the ladder anyway.

And I said, well, what did you actually think before you got on the ladder? And he gave me a direct answer to that, which we turned into our F-I uh, slide, uh, the fatalism and intolerance of situational organiz-organizational societal stresses. It's a joke slide. Yeah. And the idea was that people would realize what he'd said and it'd get a laugh, but then people started actually using it.

As, as a toolbox talk, as the basis of a toolbox talks, anybody got a high FI score and it really took off. Um, and the reason afterwards, I realized as a psychologist and the secret life of a psychologist in the world of safety, I realized there's two reasons why it took off so well when the first one is if you're having a really bad day, you are not, no individual is sitting there thinking, oh goodness, I'm having a really bad day today. Oh, bother. They're thinking something much more earthy and and meaty than that. And if you actually use the language that's in their head, you are much more likely to connect with them. Basic NLP, that that actually works.

And the second thing is, if you can make people smile, humour is two people. Shared humour is two people getting it at the same time and being "Got". Is gonna save your life if you're having a really bad day. Right. You know, so as a simple example, you know, it's about 50% likelihood of talking somebody down from a bridge with no training.

I think it goes up to about 90% if you can make them smile just once.

Shaun: Right.

Tim: You know, so there's, there's that powerful, powerful connection there through humour. Yeah. And, and, you know, fi toolbox talk, you know, if, if you, if you're a manager, you stand up with anybody got a high FI score? You know, people engage with it.

Shaun: And you've developed that to be FU as well, right?

Tim: I'll, I'll, I'll tell you where, um, the, the famous American academic study, a hundred dollars split between two students. Uh, and the task is really simple. You get to make an offer to your fellow student how to split the money, and if they accept it, you both get the money.

If they decline it, neither of you gets any money and you get the one chance. Now people, some people went 50 50. Now that was obviously great and they all went down the bar and had a big night out. Some people went 60-40, 70-30, and you're perhaps talking about different bars. Mm-hmm. Uh, a really interesting thing happened when you got to 80 20 though, when it got to 80-20, some people started saying, no.

And the person who made the 80-20 offer would always say, of course, what are you doing? You know, that's, uh, you've just turned down $20 for free. Yeah. And the person on the receiving end would say, nah, I haven't, I haven't turned down $20. I'd like to think I've just spent $20 for the joy of telling you you're miserable Uh, beep beep and all the rest of it. Yeah. And if you understand the psychology there, you know, you, you, you understand why you really, really don't want high FU scores out and about in your workplace. Yeah. Lots of people with high FU scores. You've got a toxic culture. You've got a, this really bad toxic culture.

It's a bit like, um, Lee Trevino, the famous golfer, he used to joke. He said, you can talk to a fade, but a hook ain't listening. Well, I think you can talk to an FI score, but you can't talk to an FU score, you know?

Shaun: Interesting. And you mentioned earlier in the first segment about NLP, so neurolinguistic programming.

What. What's your thoughts on that as a tool for the safety professional? 

Tim: Do you know? I am, I don't know it well enough. I do know that some bits work, um, and some bits are held not to work. Um, but one of the bits that does work is if you use the language at some people's heads, you will of course.

Connect with them. So, you know, salesman are forever trying to see the same thing you are seeing or hear the same thing that you, that you hear, you know, it, it feels good to me, right? And, and that all that mirroring stuff,

Shaun: right.

Tim: But, but, but certainly if I'm a safety professional and I'm talking to a frontline canteen and I'm just using all the poshest words I can find in order to look clever, there's a very good chance you will look clever but you won't connect with anybody. Yeah. And connecting with people, I would argue is much more important. A hundred percent.

Shaun: So, so you talked about then about what you've seen over the decades. What, what are you, what are you predicting to come. In coming decades. So what, what to you, what will the safety, health and wellbeing landscape look like in the next 10, 20, 50 years?

Tim: I, it'd be buggered if I know, but, uh, but I know I, what I'd like it to look like, I, I'd like everybody to get behind this, this. Holistic, integrated, proactive approach that says mental health, wellbeing, mindset is an absolute key element of a strong culture. You know, so that we are not arguing about whether we should be talking about mental health.

And, and I'd also like, uh, you know, I, I think there's definite trend for organizations to think that addressing mental health through mental health first aiders covers all the boxes. You know, the, you know, there's a, there's a tick and something gets put in a file, or we all know. Actually, no. They can be an important element of an approach, but they're only an important element.

And if you think they've got it all covered, mm, it's probably not worth doing at all, frankly.

Shaun: Yeah,

Tim: because it's everybody in, uh, and I'd really like to make sure that. People addressing mental health, who addressing it and wellbeing through all frontline supervisors, all managers. There's as many peers as you can, not by tick box stuff.

And, and I do think that, uh, the mental health first aider thing is, is guilty that, you know, and a, a lot of other people are, are saying that now.

Shaun: interesting. So I like to wrap these up with a question about. Tangible, practical action that listeners can take away. So what one thing would you ask listeners to think about or do differently as a result of what we've been talking about?

Tim: Goodness, that's a, that's a, that's a difficult one. Um. If they did one thing, uh, the obvious one is, you know, buy, buy my books. Uh, but no, no, seriously, the, the one thing I think I would recommend anybody who's making their way in the world of health and safety, read Black Box Thinking by Matthew Syed, I think the core element of that, which overlaps hugely with, um.

Cal Dweck's mindset, um, and Amy Edmondson's, uh, you know, work on psychological safety, you know, is an understanding of why people do what they do, and anything that allows people to develop a good, practical working knowledge of why people do what they do. Hence, for example, if they're really pissed off, they say things like, sod it, and they go and do something that they shouldn't do because they, they're just not caring about their, their own selves as much as they should be. Um, so understanding that is, is, is I think, the key to absolutely everything.

Shaun: Fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Been a pleasure talking to you as always. And let's take this agenda forwards. 

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