Neuroinclusion in the workplace: the what, why and how

Shaun: Welcome to Health and Safety and cut a British Safety Council podcast with me, Dr. Sean Davis. Today's episode features Jina Patel, chief Technical and Operations Officer at British Safety Council. She's here to discuss neuro inclusion and why it's so important. Welcome, Jigna.

Jigna: Thank you very much. Sean,

Shaun: can you tell us a little bit, Jigna before we start about your role with British Safety Council?

Jigna: Thank you, Sean. So I've been with the British Safety Council now for 25 years and have fallen in love with what this organization does, working with employers globally to improve the workplaces for millions of workers.

Shaun: Brilliant. And we're gonna talk a little bit later on about your personal lived experience with neurodiversity.

But before we start, why? Why is this area important to you both personally and professionally?

Jigna: So, as well as my role with the British Safety Council, working with our amazing members and employers, I also work with a number of charities and organizations and speak on various platforms on the topic of neurodiversity, which is something that is, uh, prevalent in my family and, uh, an area that I'm really passionate about.

And one thing I do know at the outset is by creating the right environment for any individual, they can thrive and they can contribute in so many amazing ways.

Shaun: Oh, that's brilliant to hear. Right. I'm really excited to listen and learn about more, learn about that later on. So Jig, perhaps you can outline some key facts about neurodiversity to start a conversation.

Jigna: So I'll say the outset whilst I'm not a medical expert, neurodiversity is a range of conditions including attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, autism, tourettes, dyslexia and dyspraxia, and often individuals have a combination of these conditions, and this is why a strategy of neuro inclusion, which is what we're going to talk about today, is so powerful.

The appreciation that everyone is different and brings their whole self to work and takes their whole self home. Around 15 to 20% of individuals in the workplace are neurodivergent. That's one in five. I'm gonna pause there. That's a lot more than people actually think.

Shaun: Mm.

Jigna: Not all individuals with a particular condition experience challenges in the same way.

Hence, it's referred to as a spectrum. Not all neurodivergent individuals are diagnosed, need to be diagnosed or even know why they are facing the challenges that they are. And increasingly adults in the workplace across industries are seeking diagnoses and adjustments in the workplace as awareness about these conditions increases not least through good employers who are proactively educating their staff and managers and putting policies and adjustments in place to ensure all individuals can thrive.

To get a diagnosis, individuals can wait between two to five years just to be seen. Uh, nevermind get diagnosed, so not all conditions and comorbidities are diagnosed. For example, a dual diagnosis of ADHD and autism is very common, but a diagnosis pathway for one does not necessarily lead to the other, which means that going on diagnoses alone may, uh, may not necessarily mean that appropriate strategies to support individuals are actually achieved, and this is a really key thing for employees to understand.

Shaun: You mentioned a stat then, so I think you said 15 to 20% of individuals are neurodivergent, so that's much higher than I had thought are much higher than I'd appreciated, I guess, but then you also went, went on and said it's on a spectrum, so I guess of that.

There is a greater or lesser extent of people experiencing that. So how have you seen that, if we talk about your kind of personal experience at work and in your personal life, what sort of, has it, has it shown up for you? Uh, in work, for example?

Jigna: Yes, absolutely. Uh, we do a lot of work in just raising awareness, and what that means is that when we talk about the challenges that people have, particularly through getting champions to talk about their lived experiences mm-hmm.

The impact of that has been that people have gone away and had a think, uh, about the challenges that they've always faced. You don't suddenly become neurodivergent. You're born with the, the coding that you have. And that has meant that people have been able to start to think about, uh, not necessarily just the challenges that they've had, but the root causes of those challenges.

And then in a safe environment, come and speak to us as employers, as friends, as colleagues about those challenges and the sorts of strategies that we can put in place to support them. And I think one of the key things, and we'll talk about this later, Sean, is uh, not about classifying people necessarily as neurodiverse or even having any one of these, or a range of these conditions.

It's about understanding that every individual is different and starting with the premise that everybody can, A, thrive in the right environment, and B, give a lot to any organization that they're working with.

Shaun: Good. So, so that leads me into my next question. Why should we be talking about neurodiversity in the workplace and, and why is British Safety Council talking about it?

Jigna: Um, neurodiverse individuals provide a diversity and approach thinking focus and contribution to the workplace, which increase creativity and quality of input and output. We can often have people in organizational cultures who have outdated stereotypical views, biases around neurodiverse individuals, often sadly fueled by media and TV shows that fail to see their unique and value add contribution to the business. Mm.

This can lead to approaching neurodiversity with a negative lens of disability and barriers, taking us into the realms of language of why someone struggles to do something with their neurotypical counterparts, putting costly fixes and reasonable adjustment and effort driven inclusion of individuals rather than the approach of neuro inclusion.

Understanding that by harnessing diversity of all kinds and creating an environment and working community where all individuals can thrive, everyone, especially the business and its customers who we can't forget, thrive. The cost of managing people and issues and recruitment through better retention start to come down for businesses and talent is retained and valued.

This is the ethos of British Safety Council and one that we advocate to our members and organizations that we work with.

Shaun: So it sounds to me then, if I was to sum that up into kind of a couple of bite-sized pieces to appreciate. Difference to appreciate the different perspectives that, that, that people bring as neurodivergent individuals and to flex and accommodate needs because that's good for them, good for the business, good for customers, uh, and generally a positive step that you can take to kind of make, I guess, to make it a, a, a better experience for everybody.

Jigna: Absolutely. Right. And increasingly customer bases want to see the diversity of society reflected in the organizations that they choose to work with.

Shaun: You talked about media and the representation of, of media, in media and it, my mind went straight to the Big Bang Theory. It went straight to Sheldon Cooper for some reason. And he's often, um, he's often both celebrated and mocked for, uh, and he, you know, in interviews and, uh, and, and press. He's talked himself about his character and being not, not neurotypical.

And I think, um, the media and business has a big role to play in educating people about and not, not, not stigmatizing it, not applying labels to it, and, and educating and informing people about the value that neurodivergent people can, can bring to the workplace. What have you seen in your experience, both your personal and professional experience about how, how people can bring the best out in, in a non neurotypical person?

Jigna: I think it's about understanding how everybody's wired. Hmm. It's funny because we accept that computers wired in a particular way. Software works in a particular way, but for some reason we haven't quite got our heads around the fact that every individual is wired differently.

And it's that taking time and investing in getting to know someone, understanding their strengths and weaknesses. Everything I've just said is nothing new. This is management theory. Mm-hmm. This is what we should be doing to get the best out of anybody and actually having that conversation with somebody to find out from their perspective what they feel comfortable with, how we can bring the best out in them.

This is really simple stuff. Uh, and very often people will open up in a safe space and tell you the challenges they have and how they prefer to work. One of the things that I always ask, even at interview stage is how do you like to be managed? Mm. Uh, so that I can have a think about. The adaptability of my management style to get the best out of that person and the best out of my team.

Shaun: Hmm, interesting. So in terms of practical tips, and I think again to recap what I'm hearing is appreciate difference. Create an environment where people can talk about challenges, issues, adjustments that they might need. And it's as much if, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think you're saying it's as much about you understanding and accommodating.

An individual's needs as it is about them, uh, disclosing those. So it's a real partnership to get the best out of a, a neurodiverse individual.

Jigna: Absolutely. Right. And I go back to something we said before, um, there are probably as many people undiagnosed as there are now increasingly diagnosed. So I think we can go start to go down rabbit holes if we look for, um, either diagnosis or for somebody to tell us they're facing those challenges.

And this is the educating your managers and leaders part of it. Because very often I can see traits. Now it might be that somebody isn't diagnosed with, uh, a condition, but I can see those traits and because I'm so attuned to them, I can automatically adapt. My style, my communication and the environment in which we as a team or we as an individual or myself with that person are working in.

Um, and it's, it is a, sometimes it can be a little bit of trial and error. Mm-hmm. Um, just working out what works best for somebody. For example, and I want to go back to this, uh, concept of neuro inclusion. I, I always start with the premise that nobody wants to do a bad job. Nobody wants to make a mistake.

Mm. Particularly repeatedly. Mm. And nobody wants their performance to drop. So, for example, rather than single people out and say, right, you've got this condition. You may have dyslexia and we need to get Grammarly or some other piece of software for you to support you, why not get grammar software for.

Everybody in the organization, the cost of these things have come right down. And what that means that it helps those people who don't have diagnoses or are not aware themselves of the challenges they face. Sometimes it's not apparent to that individual themselves. Mm-hmm. Um, and so what that means is that.

A greater, wider range of your staff can make use of these tools and the benefits of the wider workforce sees an increase in the quality of the output overall.

Shaun: It's also inclusive on another level by not, um, shining a light on somebody who needs that. So he's not a colleague. What, what's that on your desktop. Why have you got that? I've not got that. Perhaps putting someone in a difficult situation about having to disclose a condition. So it's a leveling, it's a leveling up tool, I guess. Uh, and, and not only will it potentially help people who who have got, who are not aware of a, of a challenge they've got, but it will also kind of remove, I guess the stigma of, of, of calling out an adjustment that somebody might need, and either that's something I've not thought about myself actually, in terms of some of the things that we could do, uh, in my organization.

Jigna: So to take it completely out of the workplace in a very different context, um, I, I, work with the scouting association and when we take children away, we are very inclusive organization.

Yeah. When we take children away overnight, when we do our planning, we make sure that, for example, there are checklists available in the dormitories for the children to look at. So, uh, that helps with those that might struggle with executive functioning. Mm-hmm. IE being organized and making sure they've got everything they need, which when, uh, they're not in that environment that they're comfortable in, they can really struggle and anxieties can be raised. And we have a buddy system in place and this is something that's completely transferrable to the workplace. So the buddy system, uh, puts children together and both of them have to check that each has got everything they need according to the checklist.

Yeah, that's normalized everything. Yeah, everybody. Uh, is a child that can do with the support. It enhances the sense of teamwork. And as leaders, um, there's less for us to do.

Shaun: Yeah.

Jigna: And it means that we can focus on the business of providing a really good. Quality experience rather than dealing with somebody's not got a piece of equipment and can't take part fully, which is exclusive at the very opposite of what we're talking about here.

Shaun: Do you know what? That's really just sparked off in me. So my, my husband has got dyslexia severely. He, he, he would tell you he really struggles with it. Um, and particularly made worse when he is tired or he is got other things going on. I, his contribution to our relationship in terms of organizing us, I am the person that can do the, the organizing, the planning.

His contribution is the practicalities of getting us there. And he, he would, you know, I'm not, that's not my thing really. It's more his, and it is a great example of how those things do work together. He, he wouldn't be comfortable doing the admin associated with the trip going away, but he's the person that can organize and get us to somewhere using his other tools is exceptionally good at map reading, spatial awareness, um, transportation planning, um, which is not really my thing. My thing is more the kind of admin organization sort of thing. So it does work well. So it's another example I guess, of of, of complementing difference.

Jigna: Absolutely. And we talk, we've been talking a lot about flexible working practices and health safety and wellbeing for a long time, Shaun, as you know.

Mm-hmm. Um, and just thinking about having those things in in place doesn't just help people with children or with caring difficulties, et cetera. But, um. Having that universally available for people enables individuals to work and perform at the times that they are functioning optimally. And that'll be different by every individual neurotypical or neurodiverse.

And again, this benefits the non neurodiverse working population who also perhaps have, um. Duties outside of the workplace, but it means that as we've been talking about, we don't have somebody that's different. Mm-hmm. Everybody's different. Mm-hmm. But what we do end up with as far as is, uh, practical and, and works for the business that everybody is in this environment and this working pattern in which they can give their best.

Shaun: So if we think about. What can employers actually do, and particularly people that are coming at this and starting afresh, so to speak. Um, what advice dear would you give them if they're coming at this and want to, you want to put in place perhaps a model or a framework to, to manage it?

Jigna: So I think it's really important that people come at this with, uh, an attitude that it's not something impossible, it's not something you're gonna get wrong, it's just the unknown perhaps.

And the answer to that is simply to get knowledge. And we've talked about this several times. Where does the knowledge come from? Yes, we can absolutely, um, go to resources that are freely available, but it's that conversation with people who represent. Neurodiversity is really, really important. And then I would say as employers, it's like any management system plan, do check act has always served me well as a nice model.

And we've talked about lots of things around strategy, leadership, setting the culture, uh uh. In the planning area and the doing, we've talked about lots of practical strategies that we can put in place that really need to speak to be relevant and appropriate in your workplace. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then the checking part is really important and that's the bit that a lot of people fall down on.

So I hear people in all aspects of health, safety, wellbeing, say to me, well, how do we know we've put millions of pounds into this thing? Um, and it hasn't made any difference because successive surveys have just said that it doesn't. And that's because the strategy has not been appropriate. You've not done the bit of work upfront necessarily to work out what your organization and its people actually need.

It's really important then to repeat appropriate intervals, whatever strategies you've got to measure, uh, what improvements have been made, and that might be focus groups, it might be employee survey tools, it might just be suggestions from people. Mm-hmm. And to go back and make sure that you've actually achieved what you set out to achieve.

And even more importantly, what needs to be done next because we're always evolving as a workplace, as people, uh, perhaps the recruitment strategy has, has changed and we're getting increasingly neurodiverse people coming into the organization. And so the organization's needs will have evolved accordingly.

Shaun: Hmm. So I think, I think if I play that back to you, the planning piece, defining your strategy, defining your approach, the doing piece in terms of implementing it, checking to check that it's landing, check that it's. Delivering the results you want, and then being really active in acting upon what the data, what the output, what the, the, the narrative that you hear from other people is telling you and, and keeping it in a fresh, continuous improvement cycle is what I think you were saying.

Jigna: Yes, absolutely.

Shaun: Good. Can I touch back a little bit more on the sorts of challenges, uh, are faced by neuro neurodiverse individuals? We talked a little bit about that throughout this podcast, but I'm particularly interested in. The language point that we've talked about, but also labels and how people, I think this is an area where people, um, do throw labels around a little bit, uh, in my, certainly in my experience.

And, um, I'd be interested if you've got a view on that.

Jigna: Yes, absolutely. Um, like many minority groups, and I know one or two things about that, Sean. Um. Or all conditions, neurodiverse people face the challenges of conscious and unconscious bias, ignorance and bullying in the workplace and outside of the workplace.

Sometimes through their entire schooling system, a clear message must be sent that. Making ignorant and disparaging comments and jokes about conditions isn't just tasteless and unnecessary, but propel stigmas and can really impact on people's lives and prospects, even their feelings of acceptance and self-worth.

I can't tell you how many times I've. Dug my nails into the palms of my hands. When I hear people make throwaway jokes about being, for example, we've all heard this 'a little bit OCD', referring to being tidy with complete ignorance of the fact that this is a debilitating condition in children and adults, making them act on an unwanted, sometimes irrational and even dangerous thoughts that have an overwhelming impact on their daily lives.

And those or their families and friends who suffer from this really know what I'm talking about. Alongside education, advocacy and champions are really important. Normalizing conversations about neurodiversity and conditions really helps. I always take the five minutes after I hear a comment like that to have a discreet conversation with any individual.

Uh, and have successfully driven this out of certainly the culture at the British Safety Council. Absolutely possible.

Shaun: It's another example of the alignment with the work that's been done on promoting positive mental health, because it's about kind of challenging those, those labels and thinking about the, the, the language that you use.

You know, they're a cycle. Um, they're not right in the head. Some of those phrases that just get thrown around that just create a really unpleasant culture and close down the opportunity for people to talk about things in a way that organizations, in my view should be, should be enabling in those conversations and encouraging people to, to bring their full self to work and to be able to express themselves more, more fully when they're at work in a, in a safe space, as you said, uh, as you've said previously.

Jigna: Absolutely. And, and we critically talk about safe. Uh, safe places to work, psychosocial risk. Mm. Managing that and ensuring that people can really feel comfortable and be able to give their all in any kind of space. And the onus there is on the employer to create that safe place of work in all aspects.

So I think the first place to start is a cultural shift, and it's some of the things that we've been talking about, not viewing neurodiversity as as a topic, not viewing neurodiversity as a barrier, and really taking on board what neuro inclusion means, uh, and getting your leadership invested into that is the, is the first place to start.

In terms of more practical areas, my advice is, uh, as in all areas of business and people management: take a strategic approach. So what does that look like? Understand your business and the skills you need and are likely to need in the future. And review your recruitment practices, understand your existing workforce and its needs through awareness campaigns.

Recruitment and confidential survey data. Encourage individuals to feel safe. We've talked about this all the way through. The British Safety Council talks about safe places of work and recognize then, uh, when you talk to people about their challenges and have. Positive conversations about how they and the teams in which they work can thrive.

Often the individuals themselves are able to give you the strategies and measures you need to put in place, enable them to thrive and be productive.

Shaun: That's a great point. I especially like that in terms of, uh, in my practice I always talk about done with rather than done to, you can't do safety or health and wellbeing.

Onto people. You have to do it with people. And I think if I play that back to you, what you're saying is start with that partnership mindset and, and including, um, in the conversation the person that you're trying to support, rather than imposing something that you think will work for them. I think that's an excellent and ex, and I mean to me, right.

That's something that everybody could do. Everybody's got it in their gift to have a conversation with someone else about what works for them or what doesn't.

Jigna: Absolutely. And many of the strategies, some which we've already discussed, um, you know, such as conducive thinking and movement spaces. They work for everyone and they don't cost anything.

Yeah. Um, we hear this a lot, you know, we've got a number of resources. We've gotta get this approved through, uh, senior leadership. Um, and putting things in place really lifts the productivity of all the staff. So the next step I would suggest is discuss those findings and needs with the staff body. Again, in health, safety, and wellbeing, we talk a lot about consultation, uh, with the staff and set those strategic measures, um, the objectives that you need and the associated plans accordingly.

Really listen to your staff body. Identify where you can best use the resources you have and have access to. There are lots of resources freely available from various charities. Prioritizing, based on your, the needs of your people and business' particular requirements, seek to build on what works for your business and its people.

You don't always have to invent new things. Can I talk a little bit more about culture, Sean, because um, that's really, really important.

Shaun: Yeah, definitely.

Jigna: And I, I started off by talking about your leadership and we talk about safety and wellbeing leadership. Get people to really live the talk, educate your entire workforce and give your managers the skills they need to handle and even start the conversations with employees.

We've talked about the fact that employees are not often aware of the challenges that they face themselves. Um, and create that safe space for that conversation to take place. Confidentiality is of course, a, a great part of that and a, and no judgment, much like safety, leadership, sponsor, champion, and role model neuro inclusion at the highest levels permeating throughout the organization.

There are so many resources available now, uh, at low cost, often free training and webinars from the charity sector that could be tapped into. Senior leaders talking openly about their, or people around them lived experience makes such a difference. Mm-hmm. Because it enables people to relate with things that are real.

Uh, and often when I'm speaking at various events, I find that people come forward and they say, you know what you were talking about, I experienced that. Mm. Can we have a chat about that? And that's how it starts.

Shaun: It really, really reminds me of the early day conversations around mental health in terms of people being confident enough to talk to line managers about issues they we're facing, about, um, educating and informing the workforce, making managers conversationally competent is a phrase I use about being able to talk about mental health issues and know where to signpost to get help, advice and support, but, but also kind of using your senior leadership teams to talk about their experience to help remove the stigma. Because I remember early, early on when the mental health, um, agenda was growing, the amount of people that said to me, I can't talk about it because I'll be limiting my career. I'm not gonna work up the corporate ladder if I suffer with anxiety and depression. And it was actually saying, well actually, do you know what you, you can, because I can show you a chief exec who's disclosed an issue. I can show you a chief people officer or a chief finance officer that has had, um, challenges with a mental health and they've managed to work with it.

And, um, and progress to those ranks. So it's, A, removing the stigma, educating people, supporting people, and, B, removing some of those barriers that people put in their own minds. Now what I'm not saying is that there aren't organizations out there that are difficult and, and do, and do. Uh. Make probably not the best judgment, but again, if as a profession, the safe health and wellbeing profession and as industry, we can start to normalize and educate on this, they'll have to catch up so you can, you can influence it from both the inside out and the outside in.

Jigna: Absolutely. And, and as I was doing the research for our talk today, Sean, um, I came across a really distressing stat, which is two thirds, two thirds of neurodiverse individuals currently do not share their diagnosis with their employers for fear of discrimination or unconscious bias. That's two thirds of those that are diagnosed.

Yeah, and we've already talked about the. You know, a larger, wider population of people that are neurodiverse. Yeah. Uh, and that's a real reflection on us as employers. Yeah. And our culture. And I think, um, the power of language is really, really important. The, the language associated with neuro inclusion versus the language of reasonable adjustment.

Yeah. Barriers, yeah. Challenges. Yeah. And it goes both ways. It's not just how employers perhaps in their policies, and again, at British Safety Council, we reviewed all of our policies to make sure that not only is the language, but the, the meaning, uh, and the application of those policies is inclusive.

Yeah. For example, when people are away, or we talked about when perhaps performance might drop, um. We are equipped to have the conversation with somebody that starts with, talk to me. Mm. What's happening, uh, rather than we are here today to talk about a drop in your performance. Yeah. Simple things like this can make a big difference and I think, uh, one key factor is actually giving through all of the, uh, educating and the awareness promotion that you do within your organization and outside of it, giving neurodiverse individuals the power of language.

Yeah. The vocabulary to express themselves how they might, uh, want to improve their working conditions. Yeah. Yeah. And come and talk to you, not just in a safe space, but in a way that others will understand, uh, talking to each other. And this is empowerment. This is the language of neuro inclusion,

Shaun: I think.

They're great points. And I would build on that with, you talked about the power of language and to express need. I also think environment and for example, I can think of in, in my current organization, we have, um, a very flat structure. We have, um. Open plan offices. We do have closed office space for, for meetings, but we've also got a coffee corner in our onsite restaurant.

We've got little breakout areas off the side of the, the, the restaurant. We've got outside tables and chairs. And I think using an environment, um, that people are more comfortable in because I think. Not everybody. You won't get the best out of everybody. And I've seen this in my own practice by bringing people into a closed office with formality.

Some people like space, some people like a more informal setting. Some people like to talk about, some people like a walking meeting, and it's about. I would say marry in the, the language, the environment and, and the culture to get the kind of best at certainly my experience. I dunno if you've got views on that.

Jigna: Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, it's simple things. So when I conduct my appraisals, I simply ask the person I'm talking to, um, where would you like to meet? Mm. What time would you like to meet? Mm. Uh and that's not always feasible. There's an understanding around that, but it doesn't cost me anything.

No. And when I can see, because I've educated myself when I can see that perhaps they're tiring a little bit or uh, you know, they need a break. We have a break.

Shaun: Yeah. Yeah. That, I mean, that to me is the, the, the embodiment of adjustment and reason. It's both reasonable, practical, and gets the best out of them for you and, um.

And, and for them. So it's a real partnership. Can I just come back to the point you made about recruitment? You, you mentioned recruitment and obviously that's the starting point. And um, so what sorts of things should an organization be considering?

Jigna: So the starting point must be a critical look at the position you are offering and what skills you actually require.

Appreciating that one test doesn't fit all, uh, and certainly there are a number of highly capable candidates for the job that may not necessarily get through rigid or set recruitment hurdles. Conventional recruitment methods can actually result in overlooking a significant talent pool. Mm. Or, uh, a very capable individual organizations have started to increasingly offer adjustments and alternatives, such as online interviews, even recorded interviews that people can do in their own time, having processed their thoughts, increased time in tests, application forms, using plain language, et cetera.

But some organizations such as the British Safety Councils have introduced policies such as anyone identifying with neurodiverse conditions not necessarily diagnosed, are automatically invited to an interview where we actually have a conversation with them about what is a good environment for them to come and talk to us in the first instance.

Shaun: So like a pre-interview interview?

Jigna: uh, something where we put the power in the hands of the person who we are recruiting, alright? And they tell us what is the best environment for them. We of course still need to assess, uh, but actually it's like management. We need to adapt and we need to understand what's right for that person because we could be the losers there.

Yeah, yeah. We could have the perfect candidate, uh, but the hurdles that they have to go through are, are not the right ones. And I think we also need to go further than this. So in the spirit of neuro inclusion, and we need to look at our recruitment stages for each type of role and consider whether they are designed for neuro, uh, they are designed to be neuro inclusive approaches.

So for example, are certain tests that we do actually necessary at all for the role? Or do we just blanket test people just to be able to filter them out? Mm. Because we all get hundreds of CVs. Mm-hmm. Rather than making adaptations or as well as making them, we need to think about the very design of our selection processes.

So let's consider Neurodiverse representation in consulting on these approaches that's available already within our uh, staff basis. Are we clear on our adverts that we welcome applications from everybody, including neurodiverse people, and that by declaring their conditions, this will absolutely not work against them.

I see so many social media posts where people are asking the question, should I disclose? Mm. And not just in the employment, but perhaps in higher and further education, which is also completely, uh, very competitive and it's, it just feels wrong. People should just be able to say, this is who I am. This is the role that you've got.

Let's have a discussion whether I'm fit for this and whether it's the right, uh, right role for the, whether it's the right role for me and whether I'm the right fit for this organization. Yeah. A relationship starts with two-way openness and trust is optimal for longevity as success in the role. So if our short term goal is to appoint a head into a role.

Let's carry on the way that many of us do. But if truly we want someone who's going to add value to that role, mm-hmm. Bring the diversity and the unique skills that that person has, then let's have a rethink about how we do this. And.

Shaun: I think that's all. They're all great points. You also mentioned earlier on about language and the importance of language and giving people an opportunity to find a voice, uh, et cetera, et cetera.

I think I can think back to conversations I've had with senior leaders who have said, I'm terrified of getting it wrong. And they've said this in the L-G-B-T-Q space and the wider disability space, and they said, I'm terrified. I get it wrong that I'll put my foot in it, that I'll, um, misspeak a word that I'll misrepresent what I'm actually saying.

And so I avoid it rather than tackling it head on my, for me personally, it comes down to intent. If the intent is to learn. Broaden your own thinking. Um, understand more about that then. Um, I think I, I, I, I think you can't go wrong in my view. If, if you are really clear, also, if you call it out, I had a conversation with, we have a an L-G-B-T-Q, um, work, uh, work stream at work.

Um, I have got no experience of the T. The transgender elements of it. And so I said, I don't know what language to use. I don't know if I put my foot in it. I don't know if we're being inclusive enough. We're being welcoming enough. Welcoming enough. So you tell me, tell, educate, and inform me. And this just feels to me like that sort of space as well.

And I think, without putting words in your mouth, I think what you were saying earlier was about using the neurodiverse population that you've got to feedback to help you become more conversationally competent to help you maybe refine your recruitment and development practices. Um, so I dunno what your views are on, on, on that whole piece around language leadership, et cetera.

I'd be really interested if you've got a view on that.

Jigna: Absolutely. Um. Safety culture, inclusion culture, any kind of culture is absolutely set by the behaviors, uh, of the leadership team. And you, you absolutely nail it on the head. It's that education piece, but it's, it's the intent. It's seeking to want to be educated.

Um, and the answers are all there. Sean, I'm a first generation immigrant, uh, and. You know, in a very different context. We were different when we were going into the classrooms for the first time when we were coming into the workplaces for the first time. And I really embraced the curiosity that people expressed, wanting to know where I came from, what my culture was like, how I would like to be addressed.

Um, and, and it was brilliant because that's the melting pot. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the key to inclusion, is people understanding each other and seeking to understand each other.

Shaun: Yeah, that's, that's a great point. If I can move us onto another aspect which links to that, I guess, legal and ethical considerations.

Back to the fact that people sometimes are a bit uncomfortable. They feel they might be, um, exposing themselves or their organization by asking the wrong sorts of question or embarrass themselves. What's, what's your views on, on the legal and ethical landscape?

Jigna: So the legal bit, neurodevelopmental conditions are considered disabilities under the Equality Act in the UK, and the law requires reasonable adjustments to be put in place by employers, a diagnosis or employee declaration.

While helpful its not necessary, and I think. Not everybody understands that, but to take an approach based on compliance and legal requirements goes back to what we were saying. It's not particularly helpful. It means that organizations then start getting caught up in seeing barriers and cultural problems that they need to solve.

Uh, conversations about how reasonable is reasonable. This is not helpful culture for an organization or for neurodiverse individuals who can be made to feel alienated. Costly, not as effective as their neurotypical counterparts raise anxieties. A comprehensive neuro inclusive approach such that we've been talking about is a far better and ethically sound strategy.

Talk to and listen to your neurodiverse population. They have many of the answers on what needs to be done to create a safe and thriving environment for them, and a thriving business for you.

Shaun: Yeah, that's great. Now, I've known you a long time. I did not know that this area was so close to your heart. I did not know that you were, um, so involved in it.

Can you tell us outside of the British Safety Council, can you tell us if you're comfortable with it, a little bit about the work you've been doing in your personal life to educate, inform, and advocate for, for the, uh, neurodiverse population?

Jigna: I think sure. For me it's not only a personal, uh, area that, that I'm very passionate about, but also in my professional life being responsible for the wellbeing of our staff at the British Safety Council.

But also working with our members and our clients in countries across the world, and not least driven by the pandemic. We've seen a real increase in the number of challenges that people face, uh, in workplaces and my goodness, have things changed and, and the impact that that's had on individuals. I think that's really opened my eyes about neuro inclusion; about all inclusion. Mm-hmm. And different ways of working. And we work today in ways that we didn't think were possible back in, back when we first met Sean. Mm-hmm. Um, and we would have conversations about people even working from home, being a new thing. Yeah. Uh, and it's about embracing these things to bring the best out of every individual and every organization.

And it really speaks to the heart of what we believe that British Safety Council wellbeing is about. Yes, it's about making sure that everybody is healthy, everybody is safe, and they're well at work as well as outside of work. But it's more than that. It's really celebrating the skills and the validity of every single person, and this is the future world of work with, uh, statistics like one in 36 children in the US being diagnosed with some sort of neurodiverse condition. The next generation of people coming into the workforce, this is going to be bread and butter for them.

Shaun: Yeah. And are you seeing that? Are you seeing it? Um. Have you seen a shift in people's, um, understanding, acceptance, willingness to disclose? I'd be interested if you've seen that. Um, I have in the work I've done, but that's just one example. So your, your perspective on that would be helpful.

Jigna: Oh, I absolutely have, and this is the most rewarding part and fuels my passion for this area, that every time I speak, I have people come up to me and say, I didn't think of that.

It's actually not that complicated. It's nothing to be feared. Going back to a question you asked me earlier, and we can do some simple things just by changing the way we think and the way we approach things. And every time we do these talks and each person that listens to this podcast and the difference they can make in their own sphere, um, helps really.

Uh, magnify the impact that we can have for everybody in this area. So, absolutely. I'm seeing the green shoots coming through for sure.

Shaun: That's fantastic. So day to day, what sort of things would you be asking the listeners to think about and maybe reflect on?

Jigna: So Shaun, I've been really fortunate to be able to talk to my amazing colleagues at the British Safety Council and our neurodiversity champions been really forthcoming with their lived experiences.

There are, of course, particular difficulties faced by individuals, uh, and by, uh, those with a variety of neurodiverse conditions. And these range from, for example, sensory processing, uh, challenges where environments are stressed. All for individuals who may need the space to move or quiet time to process their thoughts.

They may not be able to respond to questions and challenges straight away. They need that time and space to think about things. There are learning differences, barriers to social and in, uh, barriers to social interaction. And communication and the stresses from constantly masking or facing challenges, the overload that can come from that can have a detrimental impact on stress and anxiety and depression leading to poor mental health and wellbeing.

And it is important for us to reflect a condition. Uh, a neurodevelopmental condition is related to, but it is not the same thing necessarily as poor mental health. The one can lead to the other. Not everybody who has a neurodiverse condition has poor mental health. Hmm. When we give people the, the.

Empowerment and the right environments, and we take care of the psychosocial risk of their workplace. Uh, for them they may not necessarily have poor mental health. And this is really important for people and to understand. Mm. And further the, uh, champions came forth and they said that often. When things are not going well, it can have a real impact on performance and there is a sense of guilt in letting themselves others and the business down as well.

This isn't often talked about, and these are the kinds of real insightful things that, uh, leaders can understand by simply talking to their staff about what it's like. When mental health is low, the resilience elasticity also shrinks, and people are perhaps more prone to make mistakes, uh, and not feel good about their work.

This also impacts, uh, how they perhaps act in other areas of their life and can lead to feelings of self punishment and extreme anxiety. Mm-hmm. We never want to get to that stage. Mm-hmm. And a lot of the strategies we've talked about today, the safe place of working, opening up those conversations and being knowledgeable and educated enough to have that conversation with somebody or even start that conversation with somebody, can really avoid a lot of these issues compounding.

Shaun: So you mentioned your, um. Your advocates or your, uh, neurodiversity focus group, work group, ambassadors, champions, call them what you will, how did you set that community up and how do you keep them engaged?

Jigna: I think the first thing that I did was talk openly to start with, uh, to the entire population, and it's got to be something that is voluntary and people feel self-motivated to do it. And again, I come back to creating that safe space for people to come forwards and talk openly, and we respect each individual and their contribution. Nothing is mandatory.

We help them to grow into that space where they feel comfortable to grow from.

Perhaps being someone who needs support to moving into that advocacy space and empowerment and all the things we've talked about today. Giving people the language, the safe space, the voice to talk about themselves openly and to inspire and relate to others is. Absolutely vital. And when people see one person step forward and really thrive and be proud of who they are.

Mm. It's really contagious. Mm. And our group has swollen, um, and, uh, a big shout out to our neurodiversity champions at the British Safety Council. They are incredible, incredible people.

Shaun: What you won't be able to see on the podcast, obviously, is when I asked the taking that question, her entire face lit up.

She was using her hand really enthusiastically, gesturing, and just, you can see it is something that you are hugely passionate about, and I, I, I applaud you for setting that up and for keeping that, that community engaged within the British Safety Council. So that's great to see.

Jigna: They inspire me, Sean, they're brilliant.

Shaun: Now to my closing question, which I use on all the podcasts. If there was one practical takeaway that you can provide to the listeners, what would that be?

Jigna: So I think, Sean, in summation, the key messages from the discussion that we've had today, one is around. Be the leader and really understand what that means.

And that's about setting climate. It's about setting culture, it's about modeling the behaviors of inclusion. Uh, and we've talked about neuro inclusion. But actually I think our discussion is about inclusion, full stop. And it's also about making sure that when we are approaching all aspects of running a business, we come at it with a fresh.

Inquisitive, um, approach. Let's, let's question why we do the things that we've always done in the way that we've always done them. I mean, the last five years has been all about that, hasn't it? Mm-hmm. Um, and come to things with an open mind. Have those discussions, uh, and there can be no substitute for creating a safe place of work in all aspects.

Physical, mental, emotional, and a place where people can. Be who they are and talk openly about the environment that they need in which to thrive.

Shaun: Brilliant. Thank you for joining us today, Jigna. It was a pleasure to have you, and I really appreciate you sharing your professional and personal insights, and I look forward to our, our continued work together.

Jigna Patel is Chief Technical and Operations Officer at British Safety Council.

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