Asbestos Management: Time to Improve the Skills Base

Shaun: Welcome to Health and Safety Uncut, a British Safety Council podcast with me, Dr. Shaun Davis. Today's episode features Colette Willoughby and Alan Willoughby, Directors of Asbestos Compliance Limited. Colette also sits as the Chairperson of NORAC, the National Organisation of Asbestos Consultants. Welcome to you both.

Colette: Good morning, Shaun.

Shaun: So Colette, some people might think asbestos is a topic of the past. Why is it so important that we talk about it in modern times?

Colette: I think part of the problem that we've got nowadays, you're quite right, people do think it's an issue of the past, um, predominantly because asbestos was used historically, we used it so extensively, um, and although we've had various bans, certainly sort of since the 1980s through to 1999, um, I think people quite often are sort of mistaken for thinking because it has been banned.

It can't be an issue any longer. But unfortunately, the banning just meant that we couldn't import asbestos any longer or we couldn't install it. Um, but we still have thousands of buildings that contain asbestos. Um, and because so many people aren't really aware of that, there's nothing actually really to sort of prevent them maybe disturbing it and becoming exposed to asbestos.

Shaun: And I know that the current death toll is, is quite significant. What, what are you seeing in terms of current statistics? What would you say they are sitting at?

Colette: Yeah, I think having been involved, um, in the industry for so many years, sort of starting off in the early 1980s, um, and we always had quite, um, a horrendous death rate at that point, um, but we always thought at some point it would come to an end.

And as the decades have gone on, the death rate has just increased. We're currently running at around about sort of five to five and a half thousand deaths every single year, which is far greater than the number of people that killed, that are killed out on the roads.

Shaun: Yeah. Wow. That, that's a staggering death toll.

What negative health impacts are there associated with asbestos? We obviously, we, we talk about the health effects and there's quite, there's some quite, um, long names out there. So kind of explain, break that down a little bit for us, for the, for the listeners, to what they, those health effects might be and what the various, um, conditions mean.

Colette: Okay, I mean, the, the health effects at the moment, there are sort of three recognized fatal diseases that are linked to exposure to asbestos. Okay. There are quite a few other issues that aren't fatal but the fatal ones are the ones that everybody really needs to be concerned about. If we sort of just look at those, um, on their own merits, we have asbestosis, which is a, is a, is a fibrosis, a hardening of the lung tissue, so people in effect just can't breathe any longer.

Um, it's not a malignant growth but it is something that's fatal, it does eventually kill people. But then other than that, the other two out of the sort of three main diseases are both We have lung cancer, which is similar to cancer if somebody smokes, but in this case it's caused by exposure to asbestos.

And then the third one is mesothelioma. Um, mesothelioma, which tends to be the one that most people struggle pronouncing. It's always that, oh, it's that disease. Um, mesothelioma is the one that most people are sort of, or people should be more concerned about mesothelioma. Um, It's the disease that probably over the last at least 20 years has been responsible for all our changes to our regulations.

Um, the first two diseases are ones that tend to be linked with sort of like high exposure. So they would have been linked with people that maybe worked with asbestos in the past. They might have manufactured products out of asbestos or they could have been installing it or even removing it in the very early days.

Whereas mesothelioma is the disease now that's linked with maybe sort of like the, the normal trades person that might be carrying out sort of like jobs such as, I don't know, plumbing, electrical work, joinery work, um, it's also linked with people that don't carry out those sorts of activities. They might be sort of like occupying a space, um, sort of teachers, nurses, um, lots of, um, people that you wouldn't think would ever come into contact with asbestos.

Uh, it tends to differ quite dramatically from the first two in the fact that the first two are usually linked with high amounts of exposure and probably the sort of exposure that you wouldn't expect anybody to have nowadays, whereas mesothelioma, um, is linked with very, very low levels of exposure, which is why it's such a problem for us.

Shaun: I think if I play that back to you, then I think what you're saying is that there is a mixture of of time served element, but it's certainly not something that's gone away. It's still very much a present, um, a present risk and issue for people now. You mentioned two categories there. You mentioned teachers, nurses.

Can you build out from that? Why would they be significant areas?

Colette: Um, it's, there probably will be others apart from those, but, um, there's been more information sort of released in recent times about those. Um, one of the sort of large organizations, um, that sort of tries to look at sort of research is Mesothelioma UK.

Um, so they've actually sort of produced, uh, a report, I think it was, uh, sort of December time last year, which was about clearing the air. And it looked sort of, um, in particular at sort of like nurses, um, teachers, um, the people that you wouldn't normally expect to come into contact with asbestos. And although they sort of like tried to trace it back, it's been linked with the fact that the types of establishments, the buildings that they would work in, um, aren't usually very new buildings, um, and on the whole will usually contain asbestos.

Um, and. And this probably sort of goes hand in hand with a lack of sort of like knowledge and understanding of where asbestos might actually be present so those, you know, they would inadvertently potentially disturb it, um, things, I mean there has been sort of information released in the past about potentially the school teachers maybe at Christmas time wanting to stick up the decorations for the school children, they might be pinning them to the ceilings and the ceilings might be made out of asbestos.

Um, so by doing an activity that you wouldn't normally consider, you know, in the same way as if it was sort of like a plumber or a joiner or an electrician, part of their day to day work. could actually be exposing them to asbestos and in the same way with nurses as well and even, uh, doctors, people that work in the healthcare system, um, hospitals are renowned for having asbestos associated with them as well.

Shaun: So the age of the estate, the infrastructure that they're working in, that's what, that's why you're calling out those two. categories in particular?

Colette: Yes. Yeah. Um, I mean, if we think in the UK, we had, um, the predominant use of asbestos, certainly sort of like in the 1950s, but certainly 60s, 70s and 80s was sort of like the heyday for us using asbestos.

Shaun: Okay, so if assessing the risk of asbestos is based on historical work practices, how does this impact modern day regulation?

Colette: Uh, that's quite an interesting question. Our regulations have evolved over the years, um, one of the important things to consider with asbestos is, is it safe? If somebody is exposed, there's no immediate ill effects, which is probably one of the reasons why it is so problematic for us.

If you consider lots and lots of other things that people might work with that are toxic, that are harmful to their health, you will usually have some, you know, ill effects quite quickly afterwards. Asbestos has something that's referred to as a latency period. So it's the time that it takes from when you have been exposed before you might start to show any sort of signs or symptoms of one of the main diseases.

That latency period actually differs, um, on each sort of disease. We have latency periods that might be sort of five or ten years, um, and they will then extend upwards maybe up to sort of 40, 50, 60 years. Um, so it's almost a case of our regulations of always having to be playing sort of catch up, um, just looking at sort of like statistics and trying to see what else can we do differently.

Shaun: And if you think about our departure, the UK's departure from the EU then, what do you think will happen to asbestos regulation now?

Colette: Yeah, I mean, our current regulations, the control of asbestos regulations, were first introduced in 2012. Um, they were introduced as part of, um, the requirements to satisfy one of the EU directives.

And obviously at that point, uh, the UK were part of, uh, the European Union, but since our departure from there, obviously it's up to the UK to decide how it regulates, um, health and safety in general, and also asbestos. Interestingly at the moment, um, the EU, well, it's a year ago now, it was November 2023, the EU have actually introduced a new directive that specifically focuses on asbestos.

That directive, um, at the moment we have various levels that people are permitted to work with in relationship to asbestos. Um, it's, there's a lot to sort of discuss around about that now, so I don't want to confuse the issue too much. Um, we do have two particular levels. One of them is called the control limit and the control limit is meant for people that know they are working with asbestos.

So it might be people that are actually removing asbestos. That limit, um, we have at the moment, um, is linked to the European directive, um, from when our regulations were first introduced. Okay. In Europe, Europe have taken the decision that that limit, although it was always recognised limit, um, they've taken the view that that needs to be reduced further and that's actually been reduced by a factor of 10, um, to what it was previously.

UK regulations at the moment are still sitting at that level that's 10 times higher than the rest of Europe now. Um, so it will be interesting to see what the UK does about that because we're not bound by the EU directive any longer. Um, so common sense would sort of say that we should actually follow suit.

It's been recognized that the level that we've currently got is nowhere near good enough even to allow people that know they're working with asbestos to be exposed to.

Shaun: Interesting. So the listeners to this podcast will be predominantly from the safety, health and well being community and are always really keen on case law, on, on previous decided cases.

So how do these, the regulations you've, you've mentioned above, uh, impact on, on these cases of asbestos exposure?

Colette: Yeah, excuse me. The, um, the regulations to say that we've got at the moment. Uh, the control limit that we use is 0. 1 fibers per mil. Um, in Europe now that's 0. 01 fibers per mil. Um, but if we, if we look back at anything in relationship to, you know, the potential for somebody to be put at risk or maybe exposed.

quite often things are only really sort of challenged when they go to court. Um, and that's normally when we sort of get to see how good were the regulations, you know, was, were there any sort of gaps or loopholes in there? Um, there is sort of quite a, I suppose, infamous piece of case law from 2009. Um, it was Diane Wilmore and Knowsley Borough Council.

Um, Diane was, um, she was only in her forties and she developed mesothelioma, um, she looked back at her history and there was no evidence of her ever having worked with asbestos or not to her knowledge, um, the only sort of information that could be put forward at the time was from when she was at school.

Um, there was lots of information about while she was at school that she was aware of sort of like works that had been carried out while she was in school building works and the like. Um, and looking back at the history for the school, not surprisingly, it did contain asbestos. Um, so her, um, exposure and then contracting mesothelioma was actually linked to when she was at school.

Um, but trying to look at. what would that exposure be? Um, because clearly she wasn't actively involved in the work, so she wouldn't have been. exposed at the levels that we've just talked about, the control limit, the 0. 15s per mil. And the latency period. Yes, and the latency period, because obviously it was quite some years later before she contracted mesothelioma.

Um, and I suppose one of the issues as well is, although we have the long latency period, once somebody is diagnosed with a disease such as mesothelioma, they don't usually have a long life expectancy after that. Um, so. And the evidence that was put forward in the courts sort of took it back to her sort of childhood exposure, which would have sort of tied in with the timescales as well.

Um, now looking at the sort of various levels that we have in the UK, the different sort of monitoring and things like that that are carried out, um, we have established information, which was back in 1999, uh, which talks about background levels in buildings. Um, and it specifically sort of refers to background levels in a building that you have got asbestos, but it's in good condition.

Um, and that level has been established as being 0. 0005 fibres per mil. So three zeros before the five. Um, so considerably lower than anything else we're talking about at the moment. Um, that particular case established, um, with all the medical professionals that anybody if they're exposed above background level has a significant risk of increasing their chances of contracting mesothelioma.

So it was as part of that case that it was established that if you're exposed above background level, your risk of contracting mesothelioma is actually quite significant. And that was when they established that that was the reason why Diane Wilmore contracted mesothelioma. She was clearly exposed above background level.

Shaun: That leads me on then to, to think, so if there's a dormant asbestos in a building, how would you go about monitoring the levels, how, that, that's obviously the next question. If you know that there's a, a, a kind of a background risk, how do you monitor for that?

Colette: At the moment, there are, there's a variety of different types of monitoring that's carried out.

Um, I, I suppose like anything, there's no one sort of, simple answer without just trying to give a little bit of the background. Um, although I mentioned the control limit, which is 0. 1, which is about occupational exposure, people that know they're working with asbestos. So they will, they will wear PPE, they will wear masks.

Um, But they do know that even at that level, there is a level of exposure for them. The work that they carry out normally, um, is high risk work. Um, so on completion of their work, they have to have an independent analyst to sign that work area off. Part and parcel of that, um, signing off includes air monitoring, which is referred to as clearance air testing.

Clearance air testing for that work to be deemed suitable and satisfactory for, you know, the removal and closure to be taken down has to be less than 0. 01 fibres per mil. So 10 times lower than our current control limit. The guidance that we have at the moment. clearly states that that still isn't a safe level, but it's a level at which if the contractor gets it to that level, when they take their enclosure down, the level should then dissipate and fall back down to background level, which is this three zeros five.

But in addition to that type of monitoring, you will also find that There will be monitoring carried out before any work starts to establish the ambient levels in the air. Um, that's usually just background monitoring, but there's also reassurance air monitoring as well, which can be carried out after all the work's complete, the removal enclosure is gone, or it may well be carried out in an area because somebody's concerned that there's some asbestos there.

So they may come along and carry out reassurance monitoring. Unfortunately, over the years, um, and it's, there's probably no real sort of, you know, sort of point in time where you can say this is exactly why that issue has now occurred. But we have found that certainly over the last 20 years, if not longer, Most of the monitoring that's carried out to establish whether or not the background levels are okay, or whether the environment is safe because somebody's concerned, um, the monitoring the analytical companies are carrying out.

They usually carry out and assess it against the clearance indicator, this 0. 01 fibers per mil. Um, they never typically monitor actually to background level to the three zeroes five. Um, so you will have lots of organizations that think they're doing the right thing. They're asking for monitoring to be carried out.

to provide assurance. Um, but at 0. 01, if you consider we're, we're well above the level that's been set as background. Um, so you in theory have this huge sort of chasm, I suppose, where, you know, people might be being exposed, but nobody actually knows. And although monitoring is being done, it's not going to the right level of sensitivity.

Shaun: Right. I think a couple of reflections here. It's a very. Complicated area. There's a lot of technical dimensions to it. There's lots of measurement requirements to it. So, uh, obviously there's, there's, there's organizations like yours where people can come to help and advice and support, but for people who want to kind of read up on this, educate themselves a bit more, what, where would you be signposting them to what, I

Colette: mean, at the moment, the Health and Safety Executive, um, the, or HSE, the website does contain information with regards to asbestos.

It tends to be probably more aimed at, um, people that might be working with it, um, but also maybe people that would inadvertently come across it as part of their day to day I suppose trade, like the ones that we've already mentioned sort of previously, sort of like your maintenance sort of trades, maybe construction workers as well.

There's, there's not a huge amount out there for the general sort of public. Um, but I think one of the other areas as well, where there's probably another big sort of gap in information is for the people very much sort of like at the top of the tree that are actually responsible for their own buildings and for the busses that's in there.

Um, our regulations. do try and sort of cater for all those sort of aspects. Um, and like anything you say, it's, it's quite a technical area anyway. Um, so the regulations will never be able to go to the nth degree and even the sort of the guidance that sits with our regulations. Um, but one area that it is sort of quite sort of clear on is all organizations, you know, if they, obviously, if they have a building portfolio, um, whether they sort of just occupy it as a tenant or whether they're responsible for, you know, it is actually their building, they've got to maintain it and upkeep it.

There is one of the regulations that refers to them as being a duty holder. Um, so, you know, It's that area at the moment that although it's the duty holder that has the statutory requirement to make sure nobody's put at risk, um, there's very little information really for them. There, there is some general information, um, and we do have some very, very old guidance.

We've got guidance that was issued in 2002. Um, and we've moved on an awful lot since then.

Shaun: Good. And on that point, moving on, Alan, well, let me bring you in here then. What, what have you seen in the industry? How have you seen the industry move on? And I'm thinking in terms of. regulation, standards, uh, education.

Alan: What, what, what's, what are you, what have you seen and what are you seeing? Well, my, my background was construction. So I spent 20 years working out on site. I started in 1986 and started working in the, in the asbestos industry in 2007. And one thing you sort of found was that, When you're in the construction industry, no one really talks about asbestos, even though it's a built environment.

No one really sort of considers it or appreciates that it's there or what you can do when you're disturbing it and so on and so forth. And in a lot of ways, unfortunately, I don't really see that that's changed an awful lot. Um, I mean, part of the, um, HSA, they had a campaign quite a few years about, um, back about the hidden killer campaign, which was reasonably successful and, and, you know, Uh, training organizations could offer free places that people could book on so they could get some awareness training, which was great when the free places were there.

But as soon as the free places ran out and they had to pay for it, they didn't want to know anymore. Even though it's a legal requirement for these people to actually have it. So, the general builder, the general construction worker, I think their level of understanding of asbestos is actually still quite poor.

Shaun: Right, and would you see that consistently across your small, medium, right up to your large contractors or what are you seeing?

Alan: It is really. I mean, the larger contractors think they know what they're talking about, but when you actually start dealing with them a little bit more and you've got a problem that they're trying to, um, you know, grapple with and get a solution to, they really don't come back with, with relevant, um, solutions to it.

Shaun: So they, they probably, although it is a little bit better, it, it, it isn't that much better somewhere to go. And what have you seen in terms of, um, in terms of commitment to improvement? And are you seeing any green shoots? Are you seeing the bigger organizations? committing to getting better at this, or is it pretty static on where it was years ago?

Alan: I think there is a, there is a willingness to, to make the improvement, but sometimes it can be misdirected. You know, if, if someone's given them a direction as to, to where they need to go to try and get additional information and, and it's not quite right, then, although they, they, they want to try and improve things, it's, it's not actually making a big, big difference because it's, it's not, Not helping that matter because you, you see it when you're out on, on site and working with, with contractors that, I mean, there was a project that we worked on probably two or three years ago where it had a refurbishment survey specific to the work that they were doing, but they finished up working outside of that and they didn't see that there was a problem there.

There happened to be some asbestos in the area that they work in, which they didn't know about.

Shaun: And what about things like asbestos, um, well, identification, working on it and disposal? So these. You see people looking at it through the entire. chain or do you just see it more reactionary or a bit of both?

Alan: Yeah, it's a difficult question to answer. Um, I mean one, one thing that you do tend to find when asbestos removal is taking place with, with regards to a project is that nine times out of ten they'll just leave the, the contractor alone. The only thing that they're concerned about is the completion date.

Shaun: Right.

Alan: So it, it, you know, you've get, you've said you're going to take 10 days to, to clean this area and hand it back to us, so we want it back in 10 days. The downside to asbestos removal is it doesn't always work like that. No. And if you get to day 10 and the area fails, you're not handing that back.

Yeah. So it's the appreciation of to where you are with the project and you'll also find at the beginning of the project people don't take the necessary precautions because if you do, you empty an area, then have a survey done. If you find something that's licensable, you've got at least a two week delay for your notification period.

Yeah. And that's even before you find your contractor and price them and try and beat them down on cost and, and everything else. So it, it can, sometimes it can get lost in the mist.

Shaun: I guess the other point as well then is, is, um, the financial aspect of it and the pressures that organizations are put under to, to kind of maybe try and rush through jobs.

But as you said, there's a, there's a, um, it is a hidden killer, so you don't know what's there until you start. And so I think if I play it back to, I think what you're saying is that you would be asking organizations and contractors to be a bit more mindful of that. And think about what they can do to educate them on people.

Alan: I mean, it's one of those you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, yeah. But you need, you need to start asking relevant questions before you get into a project. You know, if you're going to work on a 1990s building, likely hood is, you're not really going to come across something that's going to cause you a problem.

Shaun: Yeah.

Alan: You know, it could still be asbestos there, but it's going to be non licensable, less of an issue, you can deal with it as and when you find it.

Shaun: Yeah.

Alan: Whereas if you're going to work on a 1960s shopping center or, you know, something of that ilk, you are going to find problems. So you need to spend more time in the planning of it.

As they say, you know, failure to plan is planning to fail. So it's, it's getting the right balance before you actually start work.

Shaun: One, one area I'd be interested to get your, both your views on. is how you simplify a complicated area. So we talk then through, there's a number of different terminologies, the language that you use, the measures that you use.

It's quite an intimidating area, I guess, to contractors, to the safety professional. Is there any way that people can get what I would describe as kind of plain English, simple education from, and, and, and if not, can, can we do that? Can you do that through your role at NORAC? Are there, is there a, is there an appetite out there to do it?

Because I think we, we need to, we need to start thinking about how we improve terminology, language. If we're going to get people to be more engaged and compliant.

Colette: Yeah, no, totally agree. Um, I mean, I think I suppose because I've been in the industry for so many years and I've seen so many changes and I've had lots and lots of different roles throughout that 40 odd years.

And one of them was, um, in effect as the client, as the duty holder, uh, NHS trust. So I was used to having to sort of grapple with what does the law require. you know, how do we keep people safe, but how do we still function as a hospital trust, which is always one of the challenges. Um, because we can all look at what the law says and it can be very black and white.

Um, but we also have to be realistic about the fact that, you know, organizations still need to function, but be mindful of not putting somebody in harm's way. Um, and because of having had that role for so many years and then sort of moving back into consultancy. Um, I've and Alan have always been sort of quite passionate about how do we actually help everybody else?

How do we help them understand it and how do we simplify it? Because yes, quite often when you mention the word asbestos, you know, even people within the sort of safety sector will sort of think, Oh, that's, that's another technical area that I don't know anything about. I can just, I can leave it to somebody else is trying to sort of like help and simplify that with them.

On the back of that, um, I know I've sort of mentioned it in some previous articles and things like that. You know, we did help then design three specific qualifications that looked at the different sort of types of people within an organization. Um, and it may well be whether it's on the maintenance side or construction side, where you might have a project manager or facilities manager or a school caretaker, what do they need to know?

What, you know, what are the requirements for them? But from a practical aspect because they're the ones that will be at the sharp end of it, you know, bringing people, you know, to, to site, getting them to be able to do work. How do they do that and how do they do it safely and make sure that they've got all the right information in place.

But then you've also got larger organizations that will have people further up the chain that their role, whether it's as the health and safety manager or an asbestos manager or, you know, somebody in that, even like an estate manager where they are now responsible for, okay, you can sort of act as our sort of, you know, summary duty holder, you know, you're responsible for all our policies and procedures and making sure all our systems are right.

They need different training to do it. So there's training for them. And also the people higher up that hold the purse strings. to give them an understanding as to what the requirements are. But again, in simple terminology as well, because I think it's like anything, so many areas are quite specialist that if you can't put it across, you know, in a way in which people can understand.

We're never really going to get to the bottom of the continuing death toll that we've got at the moment.

Shaun: Yeah, you make a really good point there. That's what it's all about, the simplification of it.

Alan: I mean, with NORAC, we've tried to break things down a bit as well, because, you know, you take specific items like, for example, a reinspection survey, everyone feels as though they know what a re inspection survey is, but if we try and split that down as to actually what you're actually trying to achieve by it, then it's, you know, we've, we've produced a short technical document that, that's out there that, that sort of describes what it is and what you're trying to achieve and what you want at the end of it.

And we've done that with a few other. bits and pieces as well. And we just, as and when we come up with some, another idea, we'll, we'll do it, you know, on another topic and, and try and demystify it. I love that. I knew you, I was hoping

Shaun: you'd say that, um, the demystification was brilliant. So if we build on that demystification point, um, Colette, can you please share with the listeners, um, a real practical dimension they could consider? When working with a clearance area essentially?

Colette: Yeah, um, I know people, you know, obviously asbestos can be quite a technical area. And we've talked about all the different sort of like levels that people can work with and the levels that we should be monitoring too. But if we look specifically at when we have licensed asbestos removal and there's a removal enclosure, And for that to be sort of handed back, you know, you do need to have an analyst that goes in.

They carry out a visual inspection and then they do air monitoring. And part of that visual inspection process is they're making sure that everything has gone from that area that was part and parcel of what the contractor has carried out.

Um, And so, um, I've, I've probably lost count now of how many times, like, as part of a training sort of process or even an auditing part where you'll have, you know, people within an organization that might be responsible for sort of various sort of schemes or capital projects and they will almost like automatically just hand that package over to a removal contractor and will never sort of like even question it.

Once they get the certificate back, that's fine. Um, unfortunately, sometimes The certificates might have little caveats written into them or there are occasions where sometimes the work isn't always carried out to the standard that you might expect. Um, so usually the tip that I would normally give them is, well, you've got to bear in mind that when the analyst is passing this area off, they're passing off as dust and debris free.

Um, so you can quite legitimately go in afterwards and have a look around. If there's any dust or any debris, It clearly was not suitable to being passed off. You don't have to be an expert. You are not looking for asbestos, you know, so if there is dust and debris free, once that area has been handed back, I would challenge it at that point and actually get to

Shaun: come back. At the very least, ask some questions about it.

Colette: Definitely. Yes. 

Alan: That's a great tip. But they also need to start reading the certification that they get given because in, in the visual inspection that the analyst does, sometimes there's a whole list of caveats that they that are in there. And if you read those, that might actually have an effect on the work that you want to do.

'Cause if they haven't cleaned the area where you're working. then you can't actually do your project.

Shaun: Yeah, there's some great tips. So, so look and read is the headline.

Colette: Yeah, definitely.

Shaun: Okay. So thank, well, thank you for that. Thanks for, for highlighting the risks, the regulations and the impacts. If we now move to Kind of the closing points then, and I'm going to ask this to both of you.

Um, if there was one practical takeaway that you can provide, or that you would ask listeners to action upon, what would it be?

Colette: I think it's probably, I'm just going to probably sound a little bit like a broken record. I'm going to go back to, you know, It's all about sort of knowledge and understanding and awareness, um, you know, being able to understand where people sort of fit in this, because although I know I mentioned before, we have to like this terminology that talks about the duty holder and lots of people sort of see as that's only ever going to be one person in an organization.

It's not. Everybody has a responsibility. Everybody has a duty, you know, to make sure that they're not going to put themselves at risk or they're not going to put somebody else at risk. So, but if they don't understand that and appreciate it, they're not, you know, it's not by the fact that they're going to go out of the way just to not do the right thing, but if they don't know what the right thing is.

So I think my main thing is we can look at all the requirements that may be coming out of Europe, whether the UK follows suit and reduces our levels. But if people don't understand why we're doing things, reducing the level is not actually going to stop people, you know, from potentially being exposed.

Alan: Unfortunately, it's exactly the same answer. It's down to education. It's, you need to understand. what it is that you're dealing with. And you find a lot of times that we'll, you know, when asbestos people are coming in and working on, on a property, everyone, the people that are employed and we'll just leave them to it.

Shaun: Yeah.

Alan: Well, there are some contractors, so you still need to manage them and you need to understand it. And then when you, you, you get a survey report that comes back and you, you, this is what you're going to use to, to actually manage your asbestos. And then don't understand it yet. They won't ask any questions.

Well, you know, you've paid for this survey report. So why don't you make it, make it in or get the consultant to actually understand what it is, get the consultant to explain it in, in terms that you're going to understand so that you can actually read the report, because if you can't read the report, then you might as well have not paid for it.

Shaun: So education and partnership, I think are the two things that you're saying then. So educate yourself and. and really take this in a partnership spirit.

Thank you for joining us today, Colette and Alan. It was a pleasure to have you. Colette and Alan Willoughby are directors of Asbestos Compliance Limited.

Links will be in the episode description.

Colette has recently written for the British Safety Council Safety Management Magazine. You can find the link in the episode description.