Why worker welfare isn't just a matter of convenience

Shaun: Hello, and welcome to this latest edition of the British Safety Council Health and Safety Uncut. I'm really, really pleased to be joined today by Stu Drinkwater, the founder of TAL, and Andrea White, partner in TAL and Fire and Safety consultant.

Stuart Drinkwater is one of the founders of TAL (Take a Leak), a brand-new app designed to support mobile workers welfare across the UK by helping them find clean, safe, and welcoming places to rest while on the move. We're talking toilets, a seat, a warm drink, clean water, and basic things that make a real difference during a long day.

And Andrea White is a fire engineer, fire risk assessor and safety consultant by trade, and having worked in the industry for 20 years, Andrea established Women Talking Fire to bring women working in fire safety together, and now also works very closely with TAL.

Welcome to you both.

Both: Thanks very much.

Shaun: Okay, let's start with you, Stu, if we can. So tell us a little bit, please, about your personal background and how you became involved in, in this endeavour and how you identified a need for this in the first place.

Stu: Sure. So, my background, really, is in business and finance.

And I worked for quite a large professional services firm in the UK, but also in Japan. And through that work I had to travel around to different client sites all the time. And that was my first foray into understanding, being on the road and feeling, oh gosh, where I'm gonna get my welfare from, and. You know, there's a real struggle within that.

But actually, so my other co-founder, Nathan, so he is the real visionary. So, I can't take credit for this, Shaun, I’ve gotta say right. He's been on the tools for many, many years. He works, uh, at quite a large construction company and he, he's the one that identified first-hand just how prevalent this issue is across the UK.

And actually, he, his friend came to me as a business growth advisor, which was my freelance profession for a while. Uh, just to, just to kind of say: “is this an idea that's viable? Could we actually make this work?” I sat down with him and just thought, that is a fantastic idea. It's, it's such a major problem, not just in Nathan's industry, but in so many industries.

Shaun: Yeah. Can I just jump in on that?

Stu: Of course, Shaun.

Shaun: Yeah. So many industries. So, my background is construction. Then I worked in the environmental services sector and then for the Royal Mail, so for the past 25 years. And one thing that we were constantly challenged with was access to facilities, access to somewhere to, um, have a break, get a drink, um, relieve yourself and the actual comfort aspect of it.

And some of the things, some of the, um, the lack of access to those resources drove some questionable decisions for some people, shall we say. Um, and, um, I know we'll unpack this a little bit later on. But just for. The listeners, I'm, I'm kind of supplementing what you're saying with a real practical experience that I saw that with, with, um, site-based staff, with postal workers, it is a very real and, and present issue, access to facilities like that.

Stu: Yeah. Absolutely. No, thank you, Shaun. Yeah, I, I fully agree with that. If you imagine. Any worker who is traveling around for work, from site to site for whatever reason.

As you say, it could be delivery drivers, it could be taxi drivers, the emergency service workers, they're on the road, they're going from A to B to C to D. Where do they get their welfare? That that's the question. Right. And so, so my background, to answer your question, Shaun, is really in business and finance.

Uh, but welfare is something that I'm very, very passionate about and, um, particularly as I, I had quite major health issues a number of years ago and I started to realize how important it is for like work-life balance and also just to have like a healthy lifestyle. Yeah. And to feel cared for in your work I think is so, so important.

And a lot of workers out there that feel, it's, it's not quite fair that I have to kind of suffer throughout my day because I haven't got access to welfare. So, me and Nathan and Andrea, we wanna change that.

Shaun: So Andrea, your, your involvement with, with TAL then what, what got you involved and why, why is it an important area to you?

Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, Nathan and I connected on LinkedIn for a totally separate reason. And then, uh, he mentioned to me that he had, uh, a venture. And would I listen to his, um, his description of it? And, uh, when I heard it, I, for me, it was a, it was a game changer because for about 12 years I spent several days each week out on site.

So I would get on the train, uh, generally to London. I would have to go and visit three buildings, none of which had any, um, loos for me. Uh, mainly blocks of flats, and I would look at the communal areas. Um, and, you know, it wasn't an ideal situation. Uh, you know, I'd get back on the train at the end of the day really dehydrated just to try and manage, needing to go to the loo.

So, so when I, when I heard, you know, what Nathan and, uh, and Stu were, were coming up with, I said, absolutely. I think this is a, you know, a really important issue that, that we just don't, we don't consider.

Shaun: Mm-hmm. Um, so another kind of practical lens on which to look to enact from an experiential point of view. You'd actually done that.

Perhaps we'll talk later on a little bit about kind of an inequalities around facilities and, and the like. Um, so we'll come back to that.

So, so the, on the website, Stuart, it, it explains that the TAL platform and I quote here, connects responsible employers with a growing network of welcoming public venues and offer basic facilities to those who keep the country moving.

So can you explain a little bit, how does it work? How would people sign up to it? How do people become partners to it? What's the, what's the operating model?

Stu: Yeah, of course, Shaun. So, what Nathan and I have created is an app, and that app showcases, as you mentioned, they're responsible, well, sorry, the, uh, venues that we are, uh, bringing on board.

So these are independent cafes. There could be pubs, could be restaurants. Any place that has a toilet, has a place to sit that has everything that these workers need. The way we came up with this actually, was, was looking at the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, which stipulates what welfare needs to be provided.

So, as you listed earlier, Shaun, you know, it's, it's the toilet, it's the seating area, it's, it's also clean water, it's also boiling water, and a, a way to heat up food. It's like a microwave, for example. And the reality is the current model is such that, okay, we may be able to afford, say, welfare vans, which emit a lot of CO₂ emissions.

They're really difficult to, well, where do we place them when we've got many different people traveling around at different places. Uh, and there's Porter Loos, but they're, you know, there's the environmental impact 'cause of all the chemicals that you use in them. So, the current options that are available, they're quite expensive.

They're not great for the environment, but we thought, hang on a second. There are so many of these venues around the UK that already have this infrastructure that is available. Yeah. So why can't we connect, as you say, responsible employers that want to help their workers get access to this welfare more readily with what we call ‘partner venues’ or ‘welfare centres’ that are willing to provide those immunities to the workers.

So, in terms of sign up, not just anyone can sign up. So, we, we work with employers that have mobile workers. We get them onboarded. We then provide access to their workers, uh, with the app that then showcases where they can go. And the app looks like Google Maps really, it's very intuitive. You can see your location, you can see which partner venues are, are around.

You can click on them. See descriptions are, what's the parking situation like, what amenities do they offer readily? What are their opening times, et cetera. They can simply click a button. Gives them directions in their Native Map app to go there. Uh, once the worker is at that, say cafe, for example, they can press a button to check in.

They can show the workers, “Hey, I've checked in.” There's now no obligation to awkwardly have to buy something. It means that they can sit there for up to half an hour, they can use the toilets, have some clean water, use boiling water, things like that, and the employer actually pays a fee to that venue for the privilege.

So, we're providing compliance to the employer and also the welfare to the workers, and also another source of revenue for the independent cafes, restaurants, pubs, et cetera.

Shaun: And is there a, um, is there an audited quality? Do, do, do TAL do, do you validate or audit or assure the quality of that venue?

Stu: Absolutely. So, all the venues that we're getting onboarded, we are going to personally. Speaking to the owners, speaking to the workers, making sure that they have the amenities that they say they have. Mm-hmm. Because the last thing we want is a worker going to a place and going, actually there's, there's not an available toilet here. Or, you know, all the things that, that we have to provide. Yes, absolutely. We're making sure that they're, they're there.

Shaun: And what about other things like, you just got me thinking… I have got a friend of mine who has, um, who works remotely. Um, she's thinking about going back to work. She's just had a baby, and she is going to, she's still nursing, so she's gonna want to be expressing at certain points during the day. I've got another friend who has to take medication, um, injections certain times of the day. Does it extend to that as well?

Stu: That's a great question, Shaun. At the moment, no, because we hadn't considered it, but now we will. Ah, but funny, so actually one thing I didn't mention that we added relatively recently is sanitary products. Actually, so that's another thing that we've started to ask venues. “Do you have that available?” Um, we started to list that on a, on a, uh, venues that actually have that as well. But, but your suggestions are great, Shaun.

Shaun: Good. And are there any particular professions, I know we talked at the top of the podcast about some of those sectors, but is there any that you are going after, um, for listeners to this?

Who, who would you be, who would you be asking to kind of sit up and listen in terms of sectors or professions out there at the minute?

Stu: At the moment, we kind of started with construction because that's Nathan's forte and his background. But the reality is this applies to so many industries where there, you know, maintenance workers, uh, traveling.

I mean, as Andrea mentioned as well, um, people working on like housing associations. They're going into flats and doing maintenance, things like that. Uh, you mentioned earlier delivery drivers like Royal Mail, and we've got taxi drivers, emergency service workers, so we're very open to any employer. That has teams of mobile workers that travel around it is relevant to them.

And we're not saying we're only working with construction. It so happens that within our team we have more of that experience. So, we can have those conversations a bit more, more easily. We know the lingo, you know, like we, we reference, uh, CDM 2015, for example, which construction, uh, industries will, will get and know.

But, actually, yeah, there's many industries that it relates to. And I think, Andrew, you could probably add to this as well in terms of your, your background.

Andrea: Yeah. So, um. I think the statistic is that there's about 1% of tradespeople that are women. And in terms of technical professionals like me in the construction industry, um, we are probably 10% as women in the industry.

Um, and, and what I'm really keen, keen to do is, is to obviously champion women and to keep women, retain women in our industry. Um, and for me, the welfare aspects, you know, they, they are a barrier. A real barrier, um, I've heard of, of, you know, women who have decided to choose a different job that's office based because it is just too difficult.

And you know, I, I, I've lived it. I, I, I completely understand that, that stance.

Shaun: That's one of the things I was kind of alluding to before at early on about the inequality around facilities and provision. Um, and how, how, you've just explained that, how you experienced it, but presumably that's one of the considerations through through TAL is that you will look at both adequacy and, um, suitable and sufficient, to use a health and safety term) provision. Is that, is that? Am I right in assuming that?

Stu: Absolutely, Shaun. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh, and it's one of the reasons we really wanted to get Andrea on board as well. 'cause you know, Nathan and I are both men in a very male dominated world at the moment. Uh, so it's great to have Andrew's input and, and her voice on Yeah, a very important subject that we're keen to, to make big changes in.

Andrea: Yeah, I, I'm really pleased to see that, um, they've added sanitary products to the list. I think that's, that's a really sensible thing. Um, you know, I, I just go back to thinking as I got on the train. Okay, I've got my water bottle, but I'm not gonna drink it until at least mid-afternoon because then I can hopefully not need to use the loo. You know, and, and, and to end up that dehydrated it, it's just not a solution. Um, that's why I'm so on board with what TAL doing.

Shaun: As, as you were talking earlier on, you were talking about, um, the, the way that the employer. Kind of subscribe to the app and makes it available to employees.

And then the partnership with the, with the, uh, the venues. So there's a, and, and then the venues get a, a, a financial upside. So there is a kind of, and, uh, I don't wanna put words in your mouth here, but to me, my interpretation is there's a kind of, um, social element. Contribution, supporting small and medium, perhaps even large businesses.

But, but also kind of paying back into the community. And so when I think about that from a, from a broader sustainability, ESG, responsible business point of view, did that come about deliberately or by accident or a bit of both?

Stu: It was deliberate. Yeah, I mean we, we had some opportunities earlier on to say we could reach out to chains, for example, and get pretty big coverage very, very quickly.

But actually we, we've kind of taken the, the hard route, as I mentioned earlier, we are going to independent places, location by location in person, speaking to business owners and really focusing, as you say, on building the community and it's, it's a very difficult approach to it, and you could argue it's not very scalable.

Uh, but it's something that yes, we are passionate about giving back to the community and, and supporting those independent venues for sure.

Shaun: And, and is there a, a vision, uh, you got the app but is there a kind of vision for you that you're gonna have, you know, a, a, a TAL sticker in a window or in a pub window or in a coffee shop or whatever.

Is that, is that the kind of, um, I'm thinking about? There was a safe place, um, uh, app that was created not that long ago now about people who were kind of suffering from, or, or, or. Who, who are being exposed to abuse, shall we say. And how you could speak up is, and is that something that you see TAL doing as well?

Stu: It is, absolutely. So, our, our vision is for every worker in the UK to be within 10 minutes of adequate welfare. That's where we wanna get to. And we absolutely would want all our venues to have TAL logos in the window to, you know, say that, “Hey, we support local workers. We're part of this initiative.”

That's, that's where we wanna get to. Nathan and I have done a lot of work identifying across the country - I'm quite proud of how we've done this. We've used some tech to find, like all the independent kinda cafes, pubs, restaurants around the country, and we've mapped them all out and we actually have a, a custom Google map that has almost like the      close to the end goal, like what that would look like in terms of map markers. It looks really, really cool. It really motivates us to be like, “that's all we're gonna get to.”

Shaun: And, and when you, you, we talked earlier on, didn't we, about toilets a seat, a drink, water. Is it all of it? Or if venues have got, well, we've not got, we're quite kind of quite limited on seating, but with adequate, we're very happy for you to come in and kinda have some hot water or kind of use our facilities.

Is it an, is it an ‘all or nothing’ or is it a kind of…

Stu: No, that's a good question. There are some venues that don't have all of it, but they have, they have some of it. But again, when you look at the venues on the app, it stipulates very clearly what they do and don't offer. So, the idea is we want. All of you, those amenities available eventually within 10 minutes, wherever you are in the country.

But of course, as we're very early on the journey, if someplace has say 80% of what's available, that's still better than having nothing and being stuck on the road. Right?

Shaun: Good. Um, and. So what's the future then? And, and obviously your involvement, Andrea, kind of a joint, um, a kind of a, a joint vision.

What's the future for the platform and are there other, other things that you're looking to, to do? Is it, I mean, is it, is it, are you going for world domination? Are you, what's the, what's the plan?

Stu: Love that. So we're doing one, one step at a time, maybe world domination eventually. 'cause I, I mean actually it is a problem that exists in many countries, not just the UK.

But for now, we wanna focus on UK workers being looked after changing what is currently a cultural norm where people go, “well, that's just how it is.” We live with it. Yeah. It's like, well, how, but why do we accept that? You know, you, you, you are reducing your, your literally your quality of life.

You're turning up to work every day, and as Andrea mentioned, you are abstaining from drinking because you don't know when your next welfare's gonna be. So, you are feeling dehydrated, demotivated, like lethargic, and you get brain fog. Yeah. All these sorts of things. So, we wanna start with supporting the UK, making sure UK workers are looked after first and foremost.

And once we've done that rollout and we've, you know, made all that societal change and people's mindsets are different, such that workers are now going, “Hey, do you know what, uh, I actually will not work with an employer that doesn't offer a service like ours.” Right. Uh, and then women feel more included and considered like that.

That's where we wanna get to. Uh, but certainly within the UK first, and then we'll see where we go from there, Shaun.

Andrea: I think, I think for me, I've got, um, I've got a, a 19-year-old, so I've got a Gen Z and uh, it's been really interesting as he's started to go into the world of work to watch him and his friends in terms of what's important to them? And it's different from my generation.

And things like culture and, you know, being given the tools to do the job, including welfare and how they are treated is really, really important to them. It's, it's possibly even more important than salary. And that wasn't the case in my generation.

We, we just. Like, like you said, like Stu said, we just, we just accepted it. That's how it is.

Shaun: That really resonates. I think when I think back to a place I worked previously where we introduced a graduate program. Um, we'd got all these, uh, ideas about what graduates would be looking for. Mm-hmm. Um, and when we spoke to graduates, they were much more selective than we'd perhaps given them credit for in terms of facilities, work-life balance, culture, yeah. Environment, opportunity and then salary. It wasn't straight in for kind of, what am I gonna get on, on payday. There were much more discerning in terms of their, their thinking and particularly wellbeing as, yes.

I've seen that continue in other, in other programs and things I've been involved in. And I think there's a definite kind of wellbeing as well as the traditional health and safety, but a wellbeing dimension to this one area. One thing when you were talking, that did get me thinking. I'm, I'm a trustee of the Business Disability Forum.

Um, quick shout out there. Um. Got me thinking about dis-disability and disabled access, is that something, um, that, that TAL will be looking at in terms of accessibility to, to disabled workers?

Stu: It certainly is now, Shaun.

Shaun: I bet you're really glad you came on here, aren’t you?

Stu: Yeah, I know it also because we are, we are. It's being very transparent. We're very early in this journey. Uh, currently we've, we've got, um. We're running a pilot scheme, really like the, the app is ready. It works. We are, we've gotten a number of venues signed up, uh, most in South London and Surrey actually. Is where, is where we've, we've started the, the rollout.

Uh, we've got, um, quite a, quite a major client actually on, on board that is, understands where we are and is trialling it with us and giving us feedback, which we really appreciate. It's amazing. Um, but all of these inputs from you, Shaun, are fantastic because given we're so early on in this, we can then go, do you know what, that's a great idea.

We can absolutely implement that and make it as inclusive as possible.

Andrea: And I think that's really important for it to be inclusive because at the end of the day, we have got a real shortage of workers and anything that we can do to encourage, or at least not discourage individuals to come into the industry and to stay in the industry.

You know, we've got a huge problem with retention. Yeah. So, you know, for me, things like. What TAL doing this, this app goes towards that.

Shaun: Yeah. I think you made a, a really valid point earlier on about there's attraction, retention, diversity, and then the satisfaction and cultural element. Cultural elements as well, which obviously a, a hugely important and I think, um.

Particularly kind of access to facilities, which are a basic human right. You know, but let's, let's, let's call it what it is. But the fact of that it's often for a variety of reasons overlooked. Um, I, I think that, that the work that you are, are doing here and, um. The future vision you painted is brilliant.

So, Andrea, one of the issues I'm thinking about now is who's on point for this? Who, who's, who owns this? Obviously, it's a collaboration with, with your frontline employees, and then there's the, the responsibility that the organization's got. You've got the safety professionals involved in the risk assessment, but, but who is, who's on point?

Who, who, who are you looking at? Who are TAL contacting? Partnering, challenging.

Andrea: That's a really good question, isn't it? So senior managers, I think when we speak to them, and you watch the light bulb go off. I've seen that on occasion. That's been really interesting. And they've then driven, um, input and interest in what, what we're doing.

I think it, it's obviously a health and safety issue, so I think health and safety professionals have a role to play in this and often those conversations are with the health and safety professionals in an organization. But I also think there's, um, the workers themselves, you know. If there's health and safety discussion groups or I don't know, union meetings or some sort of consultation within the organization at all levels, I think that's a great place to actually ask the question, well, what are we doing and who is responsible for it?

Shaun: I guess there's that also that continuous improvement raising the bar, just because you've always, you've always done, you've had substandard facilities or you've had to, you know, hold it in all day. That's, that doesn't mean that always has to be the case. So, it's kind of challenging the norms and, uh, and, and raising the, raising the bar on it, right?

Andrea: Yeah. And I, I think that's a really good point. You know, that there are individuals who will champion, um. Questioning or questioning what, what we're doing now and why we're doing it. Um, so I, you know, I think those sorts of people who, who are willing to, to speak up and say, well, we have always done it like this, but it's not right.

Come on. I think those are the conversations that we really need to be having.

Shaun: Yeah. So Stu, if there are people out there thinking about this or facing into this as a challenge for them, um, and they're thinking. Why would I, why, why wouldn't I? We've done a big, a big deep dive into why you would, why wouldn't someone, uh, follow up on this?

Stu: Yeah. I think the. The first answer that comes to my head here is just the consideration of cost. Like, how much is this gonna cost me? Uh, but the reality is, so one use of the app is the price of a cup of coffee, right? So if you think about what workers currently have to do and maybe have to, they've gotta go in and awkwardly buy a coffee that they don't wanna buy because they're gonna drink it and then need to go to toilet again ahead and like an hour.

Uh, but at the moment it's like the employer should be covering that cost anyway.

Shaun: Yeah.

Stu: So it, it's as simple as that.

Shaun: And I presume that. There, there are, there's gonna be different pricing models, there's gonna be different approaches to it. You're gonna depend on the size of the organizations you're working with. I'm guessing that you, is it, is it fair to say that you are evolving that at the minute?

Stu: We are, yeah. As I mentioned, we in our pilot scheme, so figuring out what works best for the employers, also, what works best for the venues. 'cause of course, they, in their minds have an idea of of what a seat in their establishment is worth.

'cause if someone's coming in and sitting there for half an hour to eat their own lunch, which they're allowed to do, there is an opportunity cost there, right? Then a customer could come in if it's a small venue and they might buy, you know, a sandwich and a coffee and something else, and they're thinking, oh gosh, I'm losing out some money here.

So there's a number of considerations when it comes to the pricing model, but this is what we're working out at the moment.

Shaun: So Stu, anybody out there listening that wants to get involved or wants to learn more, partner, uh, join the pilot programs, how can they get in touch with TAL?

Stu: Yeah, so very simply, you can email us at [email protected] uk.

You can check out our website as well, which is just TALservices.co uk. All the information's on there. So please do get in touch.

Shaun: Fantastic. So at the end of, um, these podcasts, I always ask for our guests to give one takeaway that they would like the listener to, to think about or do differently from tomorrow.

So what's yours? What's your takeaway if we come to you, Stu, and then to Andrea?

Stu: Yeah. The takeaway from me, and we've already talked about this, uh, quite a bit, but it's just acknowledging this is a, a problem that is so prevalent in the UK that we have just turned a blind eye to for far too long. So, it's, it's having those conversations, it's accepting that we need to make changes and then being part of that positive change.

Very good.

Andrea: Yeah. For me, I mean, you know, there are, there are moral, there are legal and there are financial benefits to this, I think. Um, but as a, you know, a, an an, an ex-safety professional, um. I, I look at risk assessments now in a slightly different light. And you know, I'm not sure how many of them do consider things like welfare.

And I would love for people to actually, um, one, consider perhaps the invisible things like welfare and two, maybe to take those risk assessments and have a conversation with the people who actually live and breathe them and say, well, what are the risks for you? What are the hazards for you? Because I can do it based on my perception, but you are the one who's actually doing the work.

I would, I would love if, if that could be people's takeaway is actually having those conversations, um, about the realities of a job.

Shaun: Well, that's fantastic. Thank you both so much for your time. I wish you every success, I'm a big fan of, of everything you said, and I think the, to your point, Andrea, around the kind of legal, moral, financial, ethical, but then the cultural wellbeing kind of future, future steps for me, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a huge fan and if I can kind of advocate and support for you in any way, then, then please lemme know and I definitely will.

Stu: Thank you Shaun. Yeah. Really appreciate it. Thanks for having us.

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