Stay Switched on to Safety

Shaun: Welcome to this episode of the British Safety Council podcast Health and Safety Uncut. I'm delighted to be joined by Matthew Humphreys. 

Matthew is the Health, Safety, Environment and Quality Director at the RAC, the UK’s leading breakdown service provider. 

Originally founded in 1897, the RAC has consistently been at the forefront of developing motoring solutions and has recently launched a new campaign, Stay Switched on to Safety. 

Matt has great experience in large organizations such as Royal Mail, G4S and Biffa, and we're delighted that he's found time to join us. 

Thank you, Matt, great to have you on. 

Matt: Right. Thank you, Sean. 

Thanks for that lovely introduction. 

Shaun: Can we start, Matt, by finding out a bit more about you and what health and safety means to you and what's been your journey, pardon the pun, to the RAC? 

Matt: Yeah, sure, okay. 

Yeah. So, I mean, I started in health and safety 30 years ago, this year, actually. 

And I started with the supermarket chain Summerfield as a compliance auditor at that time, which included food safety, health and safety, trading standards. 

And over a sort of a couple of years there, I sort of preferred the health and safety element of it and, and started to get more involved with that. 

Did my NEBOSH certificate initially, then I did my diploma. 

And by about 2006 I wanted a sort of a new challenge and then and wanted to work in higher risk industries than in retail. 

So, I went to work for a consultant for a little while and then that gave me a bit of a broader spectrum of knowledge around those, those different industries that we would look at. 

And then I came to work in construction. So, and I worked in construction for a number of years and then I've just worked across different industries from there, as you mentioned. 

So I've worked in the waste industry. I've also worked in sort of logistics environments like Royal Mail and, and RAC, which, you know, strictly speaking, I mean, it's own industry in itself, but effectively a lot of the logistics style principles apply within it. 

You know, man in a van, remote workers, those type of things is, you know, is pretty much bread and butter for me nowadays. 

Shaun: When we've had guests in before, we've talked about their health, safety and well-being journey and it's been quite common for them to say that it found them rather than they found it. Was that did you start off with a, a vision to be a safety professional or what? 

What's your, what's your kind of grounding? 

So, for anybody that's out there that might be thinking about a career change or a new ways of approaching... what what's, what's your kind of pre safety story then? 

Matt: Yeah, well, I worked in insurance. So, I mean that was where I started my career, so as an underwriter. 

And you know, that wasn't really for me to be honest. So, and it I was lucky that I got the role that I did. 

And I won't go into the details of how I got it, but effectively it kind of, I was lucky through contacts that I managed to find out about the job and applied and got it. 

But very quickly I found that, you know, travelling out, doing that audit type of experience and then developing into other roles that sort of specialized, I suppose when I, when I initially audited, I was finding a lot of problems, but I couldn't resolve those issues. 

And that was really where, that's probably the bit where I think you were talking about that where, where did I then want to move into? What did I want to focus in on? 

So, so I then got a more of a proactive role in a kind of a more risk management type thing, which meant that I could do policies, procedures, training, that type of thing. 

And then over the years, as I sort of went up the, the chain, if you like, in, in terms of my own career path, I was able to then have more influence over the organizations that I was working in and the, and the things that they did. 

So, so I think it sort of found me, but I, I think, you know, you just sort of weave your way through into the bits that you like and, and if you can channel your career into that, then then absolutely everybody's slightly different on that front, aren't they? 

But, but that was where I found my enjoyment of the role really. 

Shaun: Good. So you've, you've had quite a varied career, as you said, across a range of different disciplines, waste management, logistics, construction. 

If you turn now to where you are now the, the RAC, what are the main health, safety and well-being concerns that you're facing kind of strategically and tactically? 

What what's what? What kind of what's front of mind for you at the minute? 

Matt: Yeah, OK. So, we've got a couple of couple of things really that that from a principled risk element. 

One, we've got a man in the van or person in a van, should I say, travelling around the countryside. 

They're unsupervised. They are often in quite challenging environment. 

You know, we've seen recently poor weather and wintry weathers are very busy, you know, peak times etcetera. 

So they're, they're in those kind of quite stressful environments where they're turning up to breakdowns, often with a customer that might have been waiting for a while and are stressed themselves. 

So, so all of those things are quite challenging. 

And, and when you're stood on a side of a motorway, when traffic's coming past you, you know, anywhere between 60 and 90 miles an hour and, and you know, 40 ton trucks coming past you, that that can be quite, a, quite a real situation for you. 

But very quickly they become complacent because they're in that environment all the time. 

So that that that piece around the complacency is really important for me, because that's that behavioural and cultural change piece that that we need to do. 

Because I think that most of them, if they were honest said would say that, you know, when they first started to work in that environment, they probably would be very conscious that they were in a fairly risky environment. 

But people I speak to say, you know, within a week, you get so used to being in that environment that you just don't think about it anymore. 

And you don't, you don't... 

Shaun: Conditioned, almost? 

Matt: Yeah, exactly that. 

So actually, you know, the recent campaign that we've done was all about not being complacent and actually re kind of channelling ourselves into, you know, setting yourself before you get out of the van when you arrive on a scene to do that DRA, to really think about that environment and to, to sort of, you know, to really to really condition yourself to, to that sort of more naive person that you probably were when you first started, albeit with the, the knowledge of how to, how to do it correctly. 

Shaun: So you said DRA, just for anybody not familiar, that's the dynamic risk assessment of the environment that's working in. 

Matt: Ynah, yeah, absolutely. 

And then the other element of that I think is, is, you know, people talking a lot more about the well-being, mental health, that side of things. 

You know, we employ in those field environments, predominantly males, possibly of a certain age aren't naturally, you know, geared towards talking about their emotions and their feelings. 

And, and we've, you know, we've done an awful lot of work the last few years around that, as many organizations have. 

But it, but it also, you know, coupled with that, you know, they're, they're in those stressful environments, day in, day out, fairly long shifts, sometimes into the evening, some night workers, etcetera. 

So, so trying to sort of balance that out is, is a big challenge for us as well. 

Shaun: So if that's kind of major and you touched on health and well-being a little bit mainly safety. 

If you look at health and well-being, what, what challenges around things like rest periods, breaks, healthy eating, that that must be a challenge, right? 

If you're in there, if you've got your orange heroes as you call them in... out in the vans, how do you manage staying connected and educating them on things like diet, hydration, rest facilities, toilet breaks, that sort of stuff? 

Matt: Yeah, I mean it is really, it is exactly that. 

It is a real challenge for us to do it because we say, you know, they're lone workers. 

We're very much communicating them through the the internal channels that we have and they may link in with their manager, but that may be not particularly that frequent. 

So, so they do have those challenges. 

So, we've, you know, we've issued out sort of not dietary plans, but guidance on, you know, where you can eat, what you can do when you're out, out and about. 

You know, we do sort of focus on the, the general kind of health in terms of, you know, being fit to work. 

You know, it's not easy, particularly as you get to a certain age and you know, and you're sort of diving under vehicles and getting yourself into awkward positions can be quite challenging so. 

Shaun: Also, with the weather. 

Matt: And the weather, yeah, exactly. 

When you're in extreme, you know, when you're in cold environments and things like that, yeah, it can be really, it can be really difficult for people. 

So we do try and say, look, you know, we've got, we've got five key behaviours and one of those key behaviours is about being fit and healthy to do the job, not to be super fit, 6 pack, that type of thing, but just to be in a reasonable state of health and well-being to be able to sort of, you know, to do the job. Because effectively, you know, you, you know, we sort of push on the bit of if you can't do the, if you can't, if you're not fit to do the job anymore, you won't be able to do the job anymore. 

And then you'll, you know, effectively your career at the RAC is unlikely to be sustained. 

So, so we do try and focus on that, but we do give guidance as well. 

We've got an in-house health and well-being manager and, and you know, and she's amazing at sort of giving good advice and direction for people. 

Shaun: Good. So, if we move now to the campaign I made reference to, so you talked about ‘stay switched on to safety’ and that campaign. 

Can you tell us a little bit more about that? 

So it's Genesis, it's where it is at the moment, what vision you've got for it in the future. 

Matt: Yeah. 

So, so I suppose... I'll probably go back a few years, actually. 

It's two, it's 2 main elements to this really. 

So in our patrol workforce, when I joined the organization just coming up to five years ago now, you know, the safety culture in the organization wasn't, it wasn't amazing, it wasn't terrible, but it, but you know, the lot of the fundamentals that I'd experienced in other industries like construction and the waste industry in particular weren't really there. 

It was very much the safety team would manage health and safety much more than you know, it wasn't much operational ownership. 

And that was the first bit that we really did is to obtain that sort of visible leadership, high-level drive that down, increase the governance around some of this stuff and make it more effective. 

And, and we did that and we were quite successful for a for a long period and we brought, we've had lost time rates come down, RIDDOR rates come down over the last few years. 

That's all great. And we had our compliance audit rate come down as well. 

And just to give you an idea of what that is, we've got front and rear cameras in our in our vans and we can either remotely or swap a hard drive out when we visit them. 

And then we do a review of those inspections against a set criteria to make sure that they're safe on the side of the road. 

And then you know, we give out, you know, pass or fail on that depending on if they get any major issues identified. 

And we and we got that down to a certain level, but then it plateaued and it didn't matter what we did, what comms plans we did, what additional training we put in place, etcetera. 

And we did a lot of that stuff. 

It just got stuck. 

So, about the middle of last year we said, OK, we need to do a special campaign then where we really drive the key kind of behavioural pieces which are referred to earlier and that cultural change into the business. 

And that was coupled as well with our mobile mechanics. 

So, we have a new part of the business service maintenance and repair, which is just under three years old. And you know, we're taking in a lot of, we're onboarding a lot of people. 

And if you ever worked in an organization where you're onboarding a lot of people at the same time, you're, you know, the, the quality of those individuals with respect to many of them weren't possibly of the, the, the high level calibre that we might have preferred. 

So, you're accepting a sort of a slightly diluted level, but then to support that, you know, you've then got to do additional training. 

You've got to then engage with them in a, in a way that that brings them into the culture of the organization rather than a culture that they would have been used to, which very much local garages and it would have been a very different environment in in a lot of those scenarios. 

So, so to change that culture has been very difficult. 

And what we found with that in the first full year was that the, their lost time incidents was three times that of our roadside division, which is, which was huge. 

So clearly, we knew we had to do something pretty dramatic there to sort of get that focus in. 

And that that particular piece had started much earlier. And we, we drove that down. 

And actually, that now is, is, is half the amount that it was a year ago. 

So that, that in itself was unrelated, slightly unrelated to the, the, the, the recent campaign, but still, nonetheless, you know, it, it, it does show that, that we still have a lot of work to do in that environment. 

So, we came up with the, the switched on to or stay switched on to safety campaign, which is the, the overarching campaign for, for the next sort of 12 months. 

And again, we started with, OK, what do we need to do? We'll start at the top, start with the, the senior leaders of the business and get them on board. 

We did training sessions for all of the sort of senior leadership team, operational leadership team at high level around personal responsibilities, around the, the campaign considerations, the, the aspects that they should be really focused on to actually deliver that visible leadership bit. 

You know, their own behavioural safety observations, those types of things throughout the, throughout their operations and so on. 

So we did that bit. 

We also did full days training for our lead technicians on the mobile mechanic side of things because they, they were young guys, never worked in this environment before, never been managers before and they needed a lot of support. 

So we, so we did a lot of work with them and there was a big penny drop moment for some of them I think coming out of that course. 

And then we then we also did, we produced handbooks for every division. So not just the frontline divisions, but we did specific handbooks for offices, for SMR, for roadside, for recovery. 

And they were all, they all had their own golden rules. So, they had eight to 10 golden rules. These are the absolute must that you must comply with across your part of the business. 

And we put them into glossy brochures and we delivered them to their home addresses with an overarching letter from the their main director. 

Shaun: And just to give us an idea of scale, how many people is that? What, what's the population size? 

Matt: So it would have been delivered to addresses would have been about 2000 and then it would have been about 2000 office workers and uh... 2500 office workers. 

Shaun: Not small to that... 

Matt: Not small, no, no.  

To that would have received it electronically, which is slightly different. 

We didn't do it to those the home addresses, but anybody who's frontline home addresses covering letters say this is really important to me and these are the key things that you absolutely must comply with. 

And again, and then we followed it up with a learning, an e-learning training package as well that reinforced those key messages and got that across, which had a, you know, a short test at the end. 

And then we entered into what we called a 66-day comms campaign, which we badged specifically because there was some research by Cambridge University that was done some years ago that says on average it takes an individual 66 days to change a habit. 

And that's what we felt that we were into with a lot of this stuff. We were into habits and beliefs and considerations around that which we needed to change. 

So, every single day we sent out some level of communication to at least part of the business, whichever one that would be. 

And we relentlessly communicated that over those, over those 66 days. 

And then the outputs of that were the, the, the compliance rate in both those key divisions went from mid 60s up to high 80s, early 90s during that period. 

And we were only a couple, you know, we're only a couple of months into it. 

So, it showed a massive difference in the volume of major issues that we're identifying as well... halved. 

So, so, you know, it was really significant in terms of the things that we did and the steps that we took to, to get that across. 

And then we did similar things. 

We did internal podcasts, we did Dave's big, Dave's big convos. 

So, our chief executive called, it's called Dave Hobday. 

And every week he has a a weekly hour which he invites all employees from the organization to join. And we did a safety takeover of that and we and we pushed those messages through through those kind of different mediums. 

So literally, you know, it comes through different channels, different times, whether it be online or, or into them directly. 

Was s key part of that campaign as well. 

Shaun: Really good. That's really good. 

I mean, so I think if I was to sum that up, then you you're using a multi-channel, multi-level, multi kind of discipline approach to get that out there. 

So, you've got leadership involvement, you've got targeting frontline, you've got using various comms channels to get to different people. 

That's, that's great. 

So, I especially like the point you made about multi-channel access and the fact that you had an approach for office staff and then you had an approach for writing to people at home and it had that personal angle, that letter in it. 

Was there an intent that that would create a conversation at home by writing to people at home? 

And did you think about maybe the the kind of family dynamic or was it just an easier route to get to people? 

Matt: No, that was definitely part of it, which is, yeah, if it lands on the doorstep, oh, it's from, from work and opening that up. 

And, and there was reference to, you know, families, you know, we want you to get home safe to your families each and every day. So, so that was definitely an element of it as well. 

And one of the other things we did is we actually ran a kids competition. So it was a designer poster competition, which got some really good traction. And, you know, there was sort of cash prizes to win as well, sort of E-vouchers for the kids and they, oh man, they really bought into that. 

So, so again, and, and you know, we asked them to design a poster on, on keeping their daddy mummy safe on the roadside or, or, you know, on people's drives, etcetera. 

And, and yeah, and we had some really, it was a very difficult thing to judge actually, because we had some really good, had some really good posters. 

And in the end we gave a voucher to everybody that enters, you know, a small amount for everybody. 

And obviously then you know, for and we gave 12 larger cash sort of e-voucher prizes to to 12 people. 

And what we're going to do then over the next 12 months is each one will publish each winner each month to to sort of show that, you know, on online as part and parcel of what we do. 

And I wish we'd done it. If we'd done it earlier on in the year, we could have done a calendar or something like that, couldn't we? Which would have been probably even better. 

But but we're certainly going to do that as part of the ongoing campaign as well. 

So, So yeah, in short, in short, absolutely. 

You know, bring it back to, you know, coming and getting home safe at night. 

And you know, that was part of part of the the campaign and will continue to be ongoing. 

Shaun: Very good. This idea of the orange hero, which I love, is that do people identify as that internally? Do you use that terminology with your colleagues internally about? 

And so they're really clear that they've got a role to play as being an orange hero, and safety's part of that. 

Matt: Yes is a simple answer, absolutely and it's referred to across all parts of the business. 

We actually have our internal Orange Hero Awards. 

So we have an award ceremony every year where we reward individuals for different categories, whether it's patrol of the year, team of the year, etcetera. 

We have it for different parts of that. 

And we all get together at Silverstone and we have a big bash and, and a really great evening hosted by the chief executive and it's really good. 

And one of those categories actually is safety. 

So, we use so, so it's a very well embedded piece of our culture that orange hero bit and and referred to, you know, not just often, but all the time and in line with our company values as well. 

Shaun: Very good. 

So, in preparing for this podcast, I noticed that the RAC are involved in the recent launch of the government's Road Safety Strategy. 

Obviously, the British Safety Council is interested in the national work related Road 

Safety Charter pilot and the stats there show that one in three road traffic fatalities involve someone driving or riding for work. 

So, do you think there's more we could be doing as a sector, as the safety sector, to ensure that all employees are safe and healthy at work, whatever the location, including drivers or riders? 

And if so, what? 

What more could and should large employers be doing? 

Matt: Yeah, I'm pretty sure there'll be a vast difference between what different organizations are doing. 

But where I've seen it done particularly well, I think you'd, you'd first of all, initially have all your policy statements or, and policies all making reference to road safety and road safety risks and, and what we would do about it. 

I think, you know, clearly there needs to be some training in place that that identifies and focuses on road safety specifically and some of the key risks there. 

I mean, you know, from, from our own, from our own perspective, you know, we've done analysis with our insurers of, you know, what's the most frequent type of accidents that we have. 

And then, you know, focused very much on things like slow maneuvering, which obviously for most organizations would be, you know, probably the, the, the most frequent, but then also, you know, that's fine, but nobody's going to get killed doing that. 

Are they? Or they’reeunlikely to be so, but, but what about, you know, what about the other risks there? 

And, and, and looking at those and then channelling those that training into, into those, those areas. 

And always I'm slightly sceptical of that in one sense, because I always think people know the safe way to drive. 

But, but going back to that behavioural piece, people choose to drive the way that they, they, they, they want to. 

So, I think again, from, from an organizational point of view, you know, there's various things that you can use to help. 

Obviously, we have the cameras in in there, but that telemetry system, which we've just recently upgraded as well. And we're just going for a process to sort of focus on that. 

And I was speaking to our insurers a couple of months ago about it and they were saying a lot of organizations have that technology in place and now increasingly more looking at AI as a potential as well. 

But how many organizations really use it and, and, and is it part and parcel of, you know, the, the management information, the KPI reporting and that side of things? 

You know, and we're, I don't think we're, you know, industry leading by any, any stretch, but I do think the last sort of five years we've started to push a lot more in that direction. 

We now have a specific, you know, road traffic collision, KPI. 

We look at look at it from that perspective and we monitor that and we have a focus on there and then looking at things like the training and then how we use that technology piece as well. 

Shaun: And behaviors? 

Matt: Yeah. And then. Yeah. 

And then and you know, the, the part of the audit as well was looking, we do look at the how, how those individuals are driving when we observe that for a period of time as well. 

And yes, and then building that behavioural piece into in into that sort of improvement program because you know, I always think behaviours particularly if you're looking at people who are out on their own self supervising, that is the biggest, that's the biggest and hardest thing to crack. 

I think as soon as you're not looking, you know, it's different in a factory, isn't it? 

When you see somebody doing something wrong as a supervisor or a manager, you can lean over and just, you know, and re-educate them or, or tell them what they're doing wrong. 

But, you know, when they're on their own for long periods, that's a much harder, much harder thing to do. 

Shaun: Well, on that, you know, how, how with a, with a, with a field based team, how do you stay on top of that relationship management and the health and safety and well-being training of, of your employees, as you said, those that are in the office environment, you can get to which more easily. 

What, what do you do and how do your leaders and how does your team stay connected with the, the team in the field, the the the the orange heroes at the frontline? 

Matt: Yeah, so my team do an annual face to face audit which is partly a LOLER. 

So, so we have, we use jacks to jack up vehicles and winches too, we have a fold up trailer that goes in the back of the vans as well, which folds out. 

And then we, we tow vehicles off the back of that. 

So they do a load of inspection on that, but they also do a mini audit and also they take the opportunity to have a catch up, find out how people are, find out any issues that they have. 

And I think, you know, in the, in the patrols and, and the mechanics get a lot out of that as well. I think because they don't necessarily see their own managers face to face that often. And a lot of the time it is, you know, is with using other technology, you know, phone calls, that type of thing. 

Increasingly more, I've got my team to do a much more focal regional localized business partnering of the local management teams so that we're sort of in their ear, if you like, a lot more. 

So, you know, “how are you doing with that?”, you know, looking at the local management information and educating them on that front. 

And then also as well is that we've worked hard to make sure that the management information that we're producing is part and parcel of that management teams, general management information, their KPI's and the overall kind of perspective of what they're doing and integrate exactly that. 

Shaun: Being into the management discipline? 

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that because it was sort of there and it would, but it was over to the side, you know, and it was, wasn't part of it. 

And we've, we sort of managed to push that in now and personal objectives for managers as well. 

And we have their behavioural safety observations that they need to go out and do. 

And again, we, we log that, we log the, you know, they're targeted and we and we log all of those and make sure that they're all followed up on as well. 

Shaun: Good. So, when you say LOLER there, there are listeners who are not in the in the UK. 

So, LOLER, you're referring to the lifting equipment assessment. So you combine that intervention there with a behavioural conversation.  

Matt: That's right. 

Shaun: OK, great. OK. 

So what when you look to the future then you talked earlier on about how interventions can plateau and things can slow down. 

How do you plan to keep this current, fresh and keep breathing new life into it, which is the eternal challenge that we have as safety, health and well-being professionals? 

How do you and your team and your leadership team plan to tackle that? 

Matt: Yeah. So, there's a couple of couple of ways that that are just continuing the momentum. 

So, so we'll have regular and very specific campaigns that will run during the course of the year and different for different divisions as well depending on what those demands are and the buy in from that operational team. 

But minimum quarterly, but really targeted and focused and you know when multiple channels as well to make sure that we stay on and keep that drum beat going. 

One of the other key things which we are looking at which is possibly going to happen in Q2, we don't know. I can't say for definite now, but we've, we've talked a lot about... gateways to bonus and, and it may well be that if you fail one of our audits, that will mean that for a period of time as yet not agreed, but you, you may well lose your bonus for that period as well, because we don't want to go down that route. 

But again, we've got to that point where, OK, look, we've given you all the training, we've comms’d this to death. 

We've done all these different bits and you're still not getting it. And hopefully that's just for the minority. 

But, but if, but if we do get to that point, that's, that's the, that's the lever that we'll press to, to, to actually then try and get that final little bit done because, because I think that that will be the ultimate in terms of getting their attention and, and it will seem get around if. 

Shaun: I think, I think we'll probably run a podcast in future, an episode all on reward and recognition and its own right, because it's such a contentious issue, because you've got extremes of do you link it to bonus? 

Do you not link it to bonus? Is it how? How does it influence behaviours, positive or negatively? 

What does it do about driving under reporting? Does it drive under reporting? 

I think it's so I, I, I'm glad you couched it with a, so it's something that we're thinking about because it's a big topic to pick. 

And then you get into a variety of different, if you, if you unionized and how you pay structures are and your gradients are. 

So it's a big, a big subject. So I'm, I'm pleased to hear you say it's a, it's something you're thinking through. 

MattL Yeah, yeah. 

Shaun: OK, so if, if we bring this episode to, to a head, then now I, I always like our guests to end with one key take away that they'd like the listener to have from this conversation. 

So what's yours, Matt? 

What, what would you be encouraging or asking anybody listening to, to think about, to do differently or to reflect on? 

Matt: So I think, and I mean, it's not exactly groundbreaking what I'm going to say, but I always think that the key part for any organization is to get proper cultural change is that visible leadership starting from the top because there's no point. 

And for a number of years in my career, I was going in at sort of a medium lower management level and hoping that that would work, and it never did. 

You've got to start at the top. You've got to change the culture right from the top and get them on board because you don't get them on board, it will never work. 

So you start at the top and then work your way through the organization to get that ultimately that cultural change campaign and just keep, keep relentlessly pushing that message and try different, different channels and actually make sure you consult with the, the people on the frontline as well. 

Because if you don't, you know, I've missed out earlier. But one of the things we did again, was another survey. We did a survey of them to find out how they were feeling. 

And we'll do another survey post campaign as well to sort of see, you know, what the results of that were and whether or not they were effective. 

But, but those, if there's two things, if I may have two things, it's 1) is that sort of push down from the top, right, the way through the channels and then making sure, you know, how are you guys feeling about it on the frontline? 

What's bothering you? What's, what are those challenges there? And they're never backwards in telling you, yeah, what that is. 

Shaun: Good. 

I heard this phrase, which I'll, I'll close on, which I absolutely loved, which was tone from the top or tone at the top, mood in the middle and landing at the front. 

And I absolutely love that because we've all talked in our, our professional lives a lot about tone from the top. 

But I loved that. How does it disseminate down through the organization? 

How does it land if you're an orange hero out there working at the side of the the motorway with trucks thundering past at 70 miles an hour and it's -3° how, how do you feel your safety, health and well-being is kind of being taken care of? 

And I think anybody that thinks about tone from the top, mood in the middle and landing at the front will be, will be, you know, at least thinking about it in the right way. 

So huge thank you for your time. 

My huge thank you for sharing with us that that that journey and your experience and I wish you and your organization every success in in your campaign now and going forwards. 

Matt: Fantastic. Thanks, Shaun. 

Thanks for inviting me along. 

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